Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you'll hear part
two of my conversation with Patrick

Green, executive director and founding
director of the Center for Engaged

Learning, teaching and Scholarship
at Loyola University Chicago.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

I have found that people have done the
portfolio work, sometimes their portfolio.

I mean, we obviously look at our
portfolios, but what I have found

is that they are just so much more
articulate in how to explain themselves

and sort of seeing what matters.

Yes.

As a matter of fact, we hear that
time and time again from our students

when our students do portfolios.

They will report that they are able, in
an interview, they are able to articulate.

Themselves, their skills, their
experiences so much better because

they've worked on this portfolio.

They've shared and articulated
in the portfolio, their

skills, their experiences.

They've curated it, right, so
they've made meaning of it.

And then they walk into an interview
situation or apply to a graduate or a

professional school, they can articulate
this and they are leaps and bounds

ahead of other candidates because
they've worked on a portfolio and we

hear that from students all the time.

They'll come back and they'll share
with us, you know, that portfolio

I did, it helped me get this
experience, it helped me get into

this graduate or professional school.

Um, it set me apart.

I went into this interview so much more
prepared because of that portfolio.

So we know.

It has an impact.

But what's so interesting is the
way it has an impact, it's not, it's

not that all of the sudden, uh, the,
the portfolio got that experience.

It's that it enhanced their communication
and meaning making of their skills

and their, um, you know, experiences
and all of the different assignments.

It just completely.

Allowed them to communicate
themselves better.

So I wanna switch a little bit.

We don't have to talk about
portfolio the entire time, although

I would love with you, I feel I
can just talk about it for hours.

Um, but, um, I wanna save, uh, just a
little, you know, at least I wanna spend

some time on talking about, you know,
experiential learning and community-based

learning, service learning, and so on.

Um, for those who might be listening
and are not familiar with all of those

things, or maybe they've heard it,
but you know, they won't personally,

um, you know, have those experience.

Or maybe some of us, you know?

They've never been exposed.

What do you th...

cos, that's your job.

That's your day-to-day.

What do you tell them?

What's so...

All about this things, why
are they high-impact practice?

And how does that relate to portfolio,
and the things that we talk about?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks for that question.

So, you know, community-based learning
or service learning, and I use those

terms, um, interchangeably, um, is a form
of, uh, teaching and learning where, uh,

you engage students in the community.

Um, Doing some type of community-based
work, whether it's direct service,

volunteer work, or indirectly working
on a community project, then allowing

the students to reflect on that
experience and connect it directly

back to whatever they're studying.

Uh, and so service learning and
community-based learning for the past

three decades has been a really powerful
form of teaching and learning because

not only has it brought students
learning to life, so whatever they're

studying, um, has been brought to life.

It also has allowed.

The community to be seen as
a really important player in

the educational enterprise.

So the community becomes a
co-educator, uh, and by the community.

It could be a community organization,
it could be members of a neighborhood,

um, or a nonprofit organization.

Uh, and the wisdom and experience and
knowledge that resides in the community.

Is really brought to the forefront and
as students are working with members

of the community or with a nonprofit
organization, they're also addressing

the priorities of the community.

So what really makes service learning
or community-based learning unique is it

emphasizes both the learning of students.

And the priorities of the community?

Uh, I think more broadly, the term
experiential learning is really an

umbrella term for lots of different
types of, um, teaching and learning.

And so service learning, community
based learning would be an

example, but you also have.

Internships.

You also have, um, global experiences
or study abroad experiences.

You also have undergraduate research.

So experiential learning tends
to be just a broad term that

encompasses, um, an experience
that students have, um, over time.

Uh, and then deep reflection
on that experience.

Um, certainly, uh, assessment
and evaluation of the experience.

Uh, and then.

Uh, I think with experiential learning,
always connecting it back to the

topic at hand or the theme of, of the
course, what, what is being studied.

Um, and the reason that that all of
these types of experiential learning

are often referred to as high impact
learning, again, just as I mentioned

with, with learning portfolios, is
because it's about deep learning.

So learning that, um, transfers
and is integrated over time.

And I think portfolios play
a key role in that because of

that critical reflection piece.

So all of these types of high
impact learning require critical

reflection and portfolios are one
of the ideal, um, modalities for

that, that critical reflection.

Um, but my life's work has been really
focused on creating community-based

learning, service learning, experiential
learning opportunities for students.

Again, I think, you know, as, as you.

As at the beginning of our, our
conversation, Jeff, you know,

I found my intersection, my
passion at that intersection of

community and higher education.

Um, but at that intersection I also
saw the, you know, the, the robust,

um, the cultural and social capital of
the community along with the cultural

social capital, um, of the higher
education and how both of those in.

In that intersection in working together
could be elevated, um, and celebrated.

Um, and, and that's where knowledge
can be co-created through community

engaged research or community based
research, um, through community

engaged teaching and learning.

So for me, I found my passion.

I didn't have the words for any of
this when I was going through it.

Right?

I, yeah, I had to go through several
journeys before I even had the language

or the words to describe to you.

This is the work.

This is where my life passion is.

Community engaged teaching
and learning and research.

Um, if you had asked me that,
you know, uh, 20 years ago,

I didn't have that language.

Um, uh, and so for me it has
been a journey as I discovered,

uh, some of my life passions.

It has been a journey for
me to then also say I.

Oh, this is what I'm interested in and
wanting to provide these opportunities,

um, for students, but also to provide
these opportunities for faculty because

I think, obviously our goal is always
student success and student learning.

But the way that we get there is
actually by working closely with

faculty and enhancing the capacity
of faculty in higher education, and

then of course working closely with
our community partners and listening

closely and deeply to the community
to say, what are those priorities?

What are your pressing needs?

What are the assets that you
wanna celebrate and elevate?

And then how can we collaboratively
address the world's wicked problems

in order to better our local
communities and address, um, all

of these issues both locally,
regionally, nationally, and globally?

I, I love that, and I want to, I wanna
sort of look at it from a, from a, from

an angle that, That perhaps has been a,
um, a challenge in higher education recent

years, um, higher education has been,
um, under a lot of scrutiny and a lot of,

a huge microscope to, to try to, people
trying to figure out, you know, this

whole idea of cost for higher education.

I think that there's no, I.

Arguing that higher
education is expensive.

Um, what some people don't know is it's
also expensive to run, to provide all

these services that you just talked about.

It's these, these things
don't just run itself.

Um, could there be more
efficient ways though?

I think that there might be, uh,
but having all that said, one of

the things that people sometimes
don't get, and I think that what

you said is really pointing me out,
the fact that you are not coming to.

This college necessarily, just to
get those listed skills for whatever

major that you happen to be, because
you can kinda easily do that.

You can say, if you're gonna be an
engineer, here is a list of skills

and sub skills, and we can sort
of eventually list all of them.

It's a finite number.

It's a, maybe a huge list,
but it's a finite number if it

divide 'em into little lessons.

The persons will get it, or they
read enough books, they'll get

all of this stuff, you know?

And the same reason that we don't
just say, well, stop going to school.

Just go to the library has everything.

Or now, in today's world, go to
the internet, has everything,

go to YouTube, has everything.

Um, and in fact, what happens to society
has now sort of reacted a little bit

by saying, Hey, here's some bootcamp.

Here's a a little, you know, Um,
masterclass and this is how you

can learn how to do something.

You can just skip college.

And while I don't disagree that some
of those things are really, actually

sometimes some of them are great
at teaching certain skills that

higher education need to be, uh, you
know, shouldn't be misunderstood.

That is only about acquiring those skills.

It's about those experiences.

It's also about this sort of, I love
what you said about community and.

On one hand, you are creating the
priorities and figuring out what

the priorities are in the community.

For the community.

You're also figuring it out for yourself.

Kind of like you figuring out my
life's work is, is about this and that.

When does a student have
an opportunity to do that?

If they just go to like this
bootcamp, six week course?

Yeah.

They don't, you know,
that's not what those.

But camps are afford,
they're for something else.

Right.

And it's, it's not useless at all.

It's just not what higher
education is about.

Right.

It's partially about that,
but it's also about some other

fundamental part of development.

The human development.

Yeah.

You know, for themselves and for others.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Again, as you said, you know,
higher education has been under

attack, it has been critiqued.

Um, And, and the value proposition of,
of higher education and getting a higher

education degree has been questioned.

And we've seen that a lot
in the past several years.

Um, and look, I, I have three kids, one
in college, one about ready to go to

college, um, and the, my third, uh, a
few years away yet, but will be as well.

And.

And here's what I have to say because
I'm gonna speak from the lens of,

um, a, a scholar practitioner that
works in higher education and a

parent, um, who's paying hefty bills.

Um, so I want to be
really transparent here.

Um, I think the critiques around the
value of a higher education degree is.

Um, actually around how it's
being de defined and how

its value is being defined.

And I think it's being defined in
a very narrow way if you're talking

about, um, uh, getting a job that
is a narrow definition of the whole

educational enterprise, um, that
has existed for hundreds of years.

And I would challenge that if
it's being defined, um, in very

specific ways with skills and
certifications, that is a very narrow.

Um, interpretation of the
whole educational enterprise.

It's also a very narrow interpretation
of learning and development, and

I would ask people to reflect on
their own learning and development

before they would categorize,
um, A degree or higher education.

Um, because if you just reflect on your
own learning and development, um, then

that, that definition will broaden.

Uh, because higher education
is truly about young adulthood.

Um, Learning and development or for
non-traditional students, um, who

may go at various times in their
life, it is about learning and

development at a different life stage.

Um, and I would argue that that
focus on learning and development

is, if you unpack that, is rich
with a lot of different dimensions.

That's a really multidimensional
phrase that I'm using when I

say learning and development.

Part of that learning and development.

May be related to skills and knowledge
that is connected to a career, but

part of that learning and development
is going to be all these other

dimensions of what it means to be human.

It may be about the community and
their civic role in the community.

Mm-hmm.

What it means to be civically
engaged, what it means to

be a member of a community.

Um, part of that development might be, I.

What it means to be part of a
certain ethnic or racial identity.

What it means to be part of, um, where
you call the United States, your home

and you call another country home, what
it means to be transnational, what it

means to have home in multiple places.

All these other aspects
of one's identity are.

All part of that learning and development.

Um, and this is beyond identity politics.

This is again, what it means to be human.

And as people begin to identify for
themselves the meaning and meanings.

That they have in life, the priorities,
where they spend their time, where they

spend their money, where they value, and
what they value as they explore all of

that, that happens in an environment.

In higher education.

And that environment is
a structured environment.

It is a safe environment.

It is also an environment that is
built intentionally and strategically

so that individuals can explore
that, um, so that individuals can

also open their minds to new frames
of reference, to new perspectives.

Um, and all of that is.

Behind the intention of higher education
and that, that learning and development.

And so, you know, for, for me, when I
hear the critiques around the higher

education, around the value proposition
of a college degree, um, however that may

be defined, if it's defined economically
and by price point, it's defined

by the career and job, um, numbers.

Um, for me, part of the answer
is in community-based learning

and experiential learning.

Um, because the intentionality of
the connections that are created for

students through, uh, community-based
learning and experiential learning,

these are curated experiences that
students can't get on their own.

In the same way, in the same
guided and structured way.

Um, and I think some people would argue
with that and say, sure, a student

could get an internship on their own.

Yes.

But is it an educational internship?

Is it an academic internship that is
curated, connected to a class that you

see offered, like at Loyola University
of Chicago or at other institutions?

Right?

So again, these are curated experiences.

That students can't get in other ways.

Um, so what happens then is we're
connecting students to networks,

communities, people, um, and students
are connecting themselves through these,

their engagement to networks, communities,
people, um, institutions, organizations.

And that process is where the, I think,
um, Output and value of higher education

is just dramatically, uh, increased.

And, and I think that's where
experiential learning plays a key role.

I, I, I really, I love that.

I agree.

I agree with you a hundred percent.

I too have three, um, teenagers who are,
um, in high school right now, so I, my, my

bill is about to go up by a lot as well.

Um, I, I, I really do think
that there is a genuine part of.

Um, going through these, being able
to have that experience and figuring

out what matters to you, what are
your passion, what are the things

that make you happy, is is a rather
important part of the value proposition.

Who gets to just do that and explore?

You know, like it's hard to do that while
you are working a job where it was highly

demanding and sure, you'll be learning
that skill and you may be making money.

Um, but that's, that's a big part
of what, you know, you're getting

out of higher education now.

It's sometimes hard to see it because
it camouflages itself sometimes while

you're doing it is not, you are not happy.

You're like, oh, this is so hard.

I'm like, like really stressed, right?

Um, but ultimately though, We, I think
you and I believe in the long term,

that's what's gonna bring happiness
to that individual is when you become,

you know, you go through that phase of
when, just like when Patrick Green goes,

went through the face of figuring out,
ah, this is what I'm about, this is

what my life's work is gonna be about.

Right?

But it doesn't come for free.

It doesn't come easily,
at least for most people.

You have to really work at it.

And, and I think that's, that's
a, that's a big part of it.

But I also argue that on the flip
side, society needs people like

this that are happily doing things
that matters to the world in a way

that is wise and that is clever.

That is, you know, going to do, you
know, tackle two things at once.

Um, that are not just sticking
whatever that's convention for granted.

Um, right.

And so in order for that to happen,
you really need these two areas.

I mean, you, you want them to be
happy people figuring out what

matters to them, and hopefully align
that in such a way that will also

address the priorities of community.

Um, and now you have a generation
of people who are gonna be.

Knowledgeable who are able to learn
because they went through that reflective

learning, critical reflection, you know,
per um, experience and, um, are willing

to dedicate their lives towards something
that's gonna be good for the world.

Um, I mean, that to me
seems pretty worthwhile.

I.

Absolutely.

And, and what do we know about people?

We know people need meaning
and purpose in their life.

Um, so how do we provide
space for them to explore?

You know, what is meaningful
and purposeful for you?

Where do you find meaning and purpose?

Um, and how can you connect
that with your work?

Right now for some people they may,
they may connect that to their hobbies,

to avocations and, and they may choose
to do work in another direction.

That's fine.

However you find meaning and purpose,
make sure that that is something that

you center her, you know, in your life.

Um, and, and I think the reality
is, is that we know that, um,

work is important also for.

A paycheck for the ability to pay
for the necessities in life to live

safely, healthfully, and comfortably.

Um, and so the, this is in no way
to dismiss the necessity of work.

This is simply to elevate the dignity.

Of work.

Um, and so to allow people to recognize
dignity in all work, um, you know,

I always make sure and, and, uh, you
know, for my children growing up to

make sure that they know, thank those
in the service industry because without

them, we wouldn't be able to go to a
restaurant to function in an airport

properly and use the facilities.

Always thank those individuals and
the dignity of their work allows us

the privilege to use the bathroom
to sit down at a restaurant.

Um, that is incredibly
important for us to remember.

Uh, and I think for us, elevating
the dignity of work is not only about

honoring the multiple functions of
work across all sectors of the economy.

It is also about recognizing that
we hope people are able to find

meaning and purpose, uh, in their
work, and that they see it as a

contribution to the larger society.

However, that may be the contribution
of the individual who cleans the

bathroom is the biggest privilege.

That we have in this country
to be able to utilize.

If you look around the world and how
others around the world live, it is

a privilege that we are able to use a
functional clean bathroom, and it is

because of our brothers and sisters
working in the service industry who

have taken on that job and do it well.

That is dignity and work.

It also is an example of that is
meaning and purpose, and we hope that

individuals in all types of the service
industry, all types of jobs, professions,

in all sectors of the economy.

May they find not only dignity, but
meaning and purpose in their work.

Um, speaking of, um, sort of higher
education values and you know, and so

on, there are a lot of contemporary
higher education, pressing issues.

Um, certainly in the last few years.

You know, we've seen.

Um, after George Floyd, the re
reinvigoration of, you know, conversations

around racism, identity, um, there's,
you know, um, the things like the Me

Too movement that have also started
other, you know, kind of conversations.

Um, there is AI in, you know, looming
over, um, Everyone and everywhere

in the world, including education
and higher education, what are some

of the pressing issues that you as.

Um, a leader in, you know, in a
prominent university, uh, what do

you see, um, that you can share and
what is on the top of your mind?

Yeah.

Uh, so thank you for naming, um,
some of those, those pressing issues.

Um, I would underscore, um,
a commitment to diversity,

equity, inclusion, and justice.

Um, you know, the narrative
has changed significantly.

We have, um, been forced to
reckon with racial injustice.

Um, although our brothers and sisters,
um, whose lived experience has been one

of racial injustice, um, especially, uh,
the, the BIPOC Community, I would say

has been communicating this for decades.

We have been forced with the
murder of George Floyd and

countless others to reckon.

With, with this and to face, um,
that racism, uh, is um, an aspect

of our country, of our culture,
of our, um, global community.

Uh, although it shows up in different
ways and different cultures.

Um, and I think that, that within
higher education, That, that is

something that we have to face, um,
and have some really uncomfortable

conversations, uh, present and future.

Um, so I think the reckoning
of, of racial injustice, uh,

is definitely at the forefront.

Um, I think the other element that we
have to really, um, reckon with is,

uh, The environmental, uh, injustice
and environmental sustainability.

Loyola is a leader in
environmental sustainability.

Um, so I have several colleagues in our
school of environmental sustainability.

Um, but you know, the climate change,
um, And environmental injustice that,

that, uh, exists is, uh, certainly
on the minds of this generation,

um, of college students and of, uh,
young professionals who are really

trying to lead us in, in change, um,
to address, I think environmental

injustice and, and climate change issues.

And I think the third element that I would
say is really at our, um, That higher

education has to to deal with is, uh,
you know, the Rogers Park community that

Loyola University of Chicago is in, is
a community of immigrants and refugees.

It is one of the most
diverse communities in.

The United States of America.

Um, and so with that comes great
cultural wealth as students are able to

interact with members of the community,
um, who speak different languages,

have fantastic options for restaurants
from a variety of different cultures.

Um, but with that comes
this, uh, reckoning.

Of the fact that we are a country of
immigrants and refugees and that that is

part of the founding of our country, it
is part of the evolution of our country.

Um, and it will always be the
celebration of our country as

the United States of America.

And how can higher education be a leader?

In reckoning with, uh, immigrants and
refugees, um, in really, uh, creating

safe spaces and places as well as making
sure that doors are open, uh, so that

all of the individuals that find their
way here, uh, Are made welcome and are

provided the opportunities that we hope
for our children, the same opportunities

that we hope for our children.

Patrick, When do you
wanna run for president?

You didn't realize that was gonna be
a practice for a stump speech, right?

Um, no.

It's, uh, it's, it's really
amazing what you said.

I think.

I think what you're saying is just,
um, you know, these are, this is

why I love this idea of service
learning and community-based learning,

because these are, you only get to
feel passionately about these things

and understand them intimately.

If you go out to the world and look
at it, you can't learn this through

a book watching a documentary.

You have to go interact with people.

And you talk to them and you see them,
you observe, you, you, you give, and

then you, you know, you try to try,
try to get something back and it's

only through all of these types of
experiences that you can, um, you know,

um, I wanna share something that I'm so
glad that this is just a podcast and a,

not like a scholarly defense, cuz I have
no idea who actually said this first,

but I, I think I heard Steven Colbert.

Someone from Chicago, well at least
had a, a big stint in Chicago,

called Chicago, I think probably
his second home or something.

Um, who said, I think one time he
said he was talking about service.

I think he was talking about
service with the great John Batiste.

Um, the musician who was, who used
to be, you know, playing on his

band and now has moved on, became a.

Like, uh, platinum sold out artists.

Um, really pretty amazing, you
know, amazing guy, you know, itself.

I think they were talking about service.

I really loved the two of
them talking about this.

And Steven Colbert said, uh,
something along the lines of

service is love made visible.

Um, and it's very, you know,
like you talked a lot about that

learning, you know, made visible and.

And, and, and it also
comes back in this circle.

I mean, when you said that, I kept
thinking about that little interaction

and, and how beautiful that is.

And I, I think if that
doesn't connect with people...

What does, yeah.

You know, this is it.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's funny that you say that up
on my wall, um, I have a sign that

says Work is love made visible.

And that is, you know, that,
that is what I believe.

I mean, for me, that is,
that is what this work is.

I mean, it is rooted, um, Uh,
in faith it is rooted in, you

know, purpose and meaning.

It is, it is rooted in belief and,
um, and I think that's why for

me, community engaged teaching
and learning is so important.

And, um, and for me, the answer
of why higher education matters.

Well, um, this has been a
fascinating conversation, Patrick.

I feel like I can talk to you
forever, and I hope that we

do get to continue this again.

Uh, at some point.

I feel like this, we're
just scratching the surface.

Uh, I, um, I want to thank you
again for sharing all your insights.

Telling us about your story, telling
us about, you know, the origin

story of how your, your, your, your
superhuman abilities came to be.

And, and then also sharing a little bit
about, you know, what you have found and

what you have developed over, over that
time and, you know, have been able to.

Um, make all of the, all of, all of that
possible in, in, and express that in

the form of higher education with your
students and with your faculty members.

I think that's just lovely.

Uh, what a, what a great, great way
for me to, um, get inspired and I hope

everyone who's listening, uh, as well.

Um, are there any, uh, closing
thoughts that you have, uh,

before we, we let you go?

And then, uh, but hopefully, you know how.

Have the opportunity to welcome
you back in the near future.

Well, first of all, thank you so much for
the time and, and thoughtful questions

and dialogue and, and, um, it has
been a, a, a pleasure and I think, you

know, uh, My invitation for, um, anyone
listening is, uh, to continue to be in

process and to continue to explore, uh,
and wherever they may be, uh, uh, maybe

try to explore something new today.

That's lovely.

Next time we'll talk about all the
books and the articles and all the other

things that you do that we didn't get to.

But, um, thank you again Patrick,
and let's talk again soon.

That sounds great.

I would look forward to it.

Thank you.

Take care.

Bye-bye.

This concludes our conversation
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