Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear part two
of my conversation with Clea Ramos, a

student studying Computer Engineering
and Studio Arts at Bucknell University.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

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So, yeah, let me ask you then, like,
what are your current view as a

soon-to-graduate student, especially
Gen A... Gen, um, A.I., you know, became

available to us two and a bit years ago,
but really became like pretty dominant

probably in the last, let's call it a
year and a half, something like that.

What, how has that been
like for you as a student?

I remember when ChadGPT came out, I
believe the winter of my sophomore year,

and students were using it for everything
at the time, and it was still pretty new,

so I would just hear about it here and
there, and because it's Liberal Arts,

I have friends in Engineering, I have
friends in Humanities, And I know the

Humanities have been pretty strict on
it because their assignments comprise

of mostly writings and readings, and
they don't want you to ask ChatGPT to

summarize it or to write you a paragraph
that you're supposed to write yourself

because you're not learning at that point.

So I've taken a few classes in
humanities and some professors are

very strict about it in that sense.

But in, in the tech world and CompSci,
it's a really great tool for debugging.

So you can put your code in it
and say, I have an error here.

Can you please help me fix it?

And it won't do it 100 percent
of the time completely correct.

So sometimes you have to edit
your query and be more specific.

Uh, but I remember I was very hesitant
to use it because it felt like cheating,

and it was kind of a morality issue.

And I've seen students who just
use ChadGPT to finish their whole

coding assignment for them, which
is against the point of doing

the coding assignment yourself.

So, Uh, our professor, a lot of professors
in, uh, STEM and in coding, specifically

CompSci, um, are for the use of it,
sometimes as long as you cite it or

as long as you know the implications
of it and use it as a tool rather

than using it to do your work for you.

So in that sense, I think it is a very
efficient tool because it can save you

hours of debugging or if you know how to
do something really quick, you can ask.

chat, GBT, or any AI
to generate it for you.

And I think some people are afraid
that it will take over our jobs,

but it doesn't have, it doesn't have
that human aspect to it, like we were

saying earlier, it doesn't, it doesn't
recognize the value that you're creating.

So knowing that is, is
really important to consider.

So I would say I am for using
ChatGPT, as long as you're using

it responsibly and as a tool, and
it's very, it's a very powerful tool

to accomplish things efficiently.

But just to be sure you can't rely on it.

I, I, by the way, I'm, I'm also very
much for using it e... responsibly.

And I also think a lot about, you know,
for the convenience that it affords

you and like, how else does it change
the way we think about this world?

So like.

I think about like in your case,
for example, I can already hear

from certain engineers that
says, no, but Clea, you're wrong.

It's the suffering of like
spending hours looking for that

really, really little tiny bug
that makes you force you to learn.

I used to be like that.

You did?

Yeah.

And what changed or what are
you, do you still think that way?

Well, because I was, I felt like, again,
like it was cheating, like I didn't learn

from it, but now if you don't use it,
sometimes you're behind because other

people will use it and generate it so
much more quickly than you can learn.

Learn it.

And because sometimes with a search
engine, you type in your question

and you have to click on links.

And sometimes it's not exactly what
you're looking for, whereas using

AI, you type in your question and
it will provide more resources and

exactly what you want, depending on
how clear you are in your comment.

So it's that aspect of being
efficient, um, allows you to kind of

get ahead and do things much faster.

And I, let me, let me just
keep asking that, right?

So if you got done something faster.

What does that do?

Does it give you more time to, what is,
what do you do with the time, like the

hours of agony that it saved you, right?

Yeah, but what is that like?

So what now?

Like you've just saved four hours
of looking for this really tiny bug

that it just Turns out to be you
missed the semi colon somewhere.

Happens, right?

Yes.

The semi colon.

And, uh, so, so, so now
it saved you that time.

What do you do with that
time because of that?

Yes, so, I think, um, that it does save
time, but I, I make sure that I go back

and read it to make sure I understand how.

The, the code is being produced and what
it actually means, not just copy paste.

Cause then at that point, I'm not learning
anything because sometimes with coding

assignments, it just takes a long time.

And a lot of the time is debugging
where you can just push it in and

then it'll output what you need.

So, um, I think it's more prevalent,
especially in my senior design

project where we're on a timeline.

So we have a year long project
with a client and we're supposed

to deliver a product at the end.

And we, since I'm project manager, I'm
setting the deadlines for each team

member, you should be done with your.

Block by this date, we need to
be done integrating by this date.

So by saving time that way, it allows
us to make sure we're on track and

on progress for our next steps in
the timeline, because in the real

world, especially with software
engineering, you have things to deliver.

You have a product to get
out to a client on time.

So that time efficiency is important.

And I find by the way, that real world
learning is so nice and so important.

I wanted to talk a little
bit about this time aspect.

A little bit more, if that's all right
with you, I sort of have this thesis that

first of all, in your project, you're the
project manager, you probably are both

a project manager and you probably do
some of the project as well, I assume,

but you also take on that role of making
sure that the things run, run, run on

time, uh, from everyone and they all
sort of get to, you know, can come, can

coexist together harmoniously, right?

Mm hmm.

Number one is that I, I have found,
at least for myself, sort of pre-AI

assistant, and this is like, I mean, I
think people think about sometimes like,

Oh, you're in an education environment.

It's different from if you're
in the real world environment,

it is supposed to be painful.

It's supposed to be this,
supposed to be that.

Um, I don't know, I don't
really fully agree with it.

You know, at my company, we have,
you know, like engineers and

they work together and do things.

They value learning very much themselves.

They will use the tools
though, in whatever ways that

they think is best for them.

And best sometimes means more
efficient, but sometimes it's less

efficient, but in order to understand
it further, um, just, you know, it's

something that you have to understand.

And especially sort of in, in the
current climate of AI getting more and

more capable in coding and all that.

Yeah.

I mean, being able to debug faster means
that they have less, they, they spending

less energy and time to the debugging,
which some people might say that that's

where the art of, you know, coding
is, this is, you're supposed to suffer

through that, um, so that you get better.

But I will also argue that I observe in
our, in our, with our engineers, we may

not have been able to ship something at
all if we didn't get that efficiency.

So.

And forget the fact that you have, in
your case, a client to deliver it to, if

you didn't get to finish the entire cycle
and you slow down the rest of the team

and all of the rest of it, you also get
less learning done because you were able

to get through less of the whole process.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So in some sense, that speeding
up of certain aspect of it, it

also gave you more opportunity.

To do, to experience things that
you never would get to be able

to, to be, to be able to do.

It's almost like if you were training
for a marathon, but somehow you can

never run past the 20 mile mark.

You would never know what
the last six miles look like.

Mm-hmm . Yes, for sure.

Yeah.

So you kind of, you know, like the
efficiency gained also means you

now get to run the last six miles.

Mm-hmm . And having the entire
experience of finishing 26.2 miles.

Is maybe better than having the
struggle at Model 15 to 18 so much.

Yes.

It's a balance.

Yeah, it's a balance.

Some people will just use chat and then
not, not have that struggle, and then

it's frustrating to figure it on your own.

Just basically flat out
like cheated, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's a balance, like at some point.

You, you need to balance the efficiency
because sometimes we get stuck on a

problem and then we use chat and then at
some point you try everything and it's

not worth spending time over debugging.

You might as well just go to
the professor, go to office

hours, get it solved in class.

So it's a balance of like using
efficiency, but to some point it just

doesn't work and you, and you just
have to figure it out and you do end

up putting the hard work in, it's just,
you're skipping over the things that are

more easily solvable by using ChatGPT.

I think you're absolutely right.

And this is the part that I sometimes,
you know, try to try to try to look at

is you, you are, if you are someone who.

Actually just have it do everything
for you and you just flat out

just not spending any time.

You're just, you know,
basically doing a poor job.

What happens is that you get away
for a very short time anyway,

because, you know, you, like you
said, it's a year long project.

The project gets more and more complex as
it goes and things are interrelated and

you really have to understand it for it
to actually, for you to even contribute.

Because it builds.

Yeah, if you are that team member
who's just like, I'm just going to

paste in whatever, you know, after
a couple of months, maybe the first

couple of months you are like, really
like just slacking and not doing

anything, but after a couple of months,
I don't think you can even contribute

at that team because you'd be lost.

It'll be like outsourcing someone
watching a. You know, eight

season-long, you know, series, you,
you've got to watch to know the plot.

You can't follow it, you know,
if you're not part of it.

Um, and I find that to be sort of like,
so, I mean, you, you'd learn that lesson

relatively quickly, I think, you know, if,
if your projects are real world enough.

I think it's problematic when the
projects are not real world enough,

where you are just asking problem sets
and individual essays, because then,

yeah, it's really easy for someone
to just go, yeah, I just did that.

I passed it.

It has nothing to do with
the next project anyway.

Yeah.

So then, you know, like that.

That efficiency suddenly becomes very,
so that you can cheat and it doesn't,

it doesn't, there's no concerns,
you know, you weren't really being

asked to build on, on top of it.

I can't imagine in your project
that your team members could survive

if they just kind of, you know,
not actually know what's going on.

Um, I find it to be in my team, you
know, like if I have an engineers who

basically just kind of, they don't
really know what's going on, like.

They can't even last one discussion
because we'll be talking about something,

be like, well, what do you think of this?

And they wouldn't be able to,
they wouldn't know because they

didn't understand, you know, why
the decision was made before.

So it would be like, like I said,
just asking you what happened with

last week's episode on severance.

And you're like, well, I didn't
watch it then, but you don't know.

You just simply don't know.

Right.

You can't cheat your way out of that.

Um, and so.

And it's not even so much about, I think
like people want to do it at that point.

Um, they actually just
want to do the project.

And I also want, um, have one
observation that I have found too,

which is because it's efficient.

We have started to be able to.

At least in our own engineering
and design projects that we've

been able to do sometimes

sort of additional iterations
that previously we wouldn't

be able to afford to do.

Cause we only had time to do so much.

And you'd kind of have to kind of go,
well, this is what we have time for.

This is what we're going with.

Sometimes even knowing that it may not be
the best solution, but we don't have time

to experiment with three other solutions.

Yes.

But now I feel like that we are starting
to find ourselves that if we make it so

that we're just going to almost like let
it generate something it's rough and we're

not going to actually use it, but we're
going to do three different approaches

so that we can experiment a little bit
and then we can like make some decisions.

Yeah.

That prototyping phases.

So yeah, it's like, it's tremendous, you
know, It's tremendous, like the ability

to prototype and then prototyping is
maybe is one of those processes that is

very well known in that design thinking
in the engineering, uh, design sort of

process, but maybe it's less so in, um,
I don't know, um, writing an essay on

history, um, But historians have their
own, like, unique ways of thinking

that I think is really useful too.

So like, I think these are the kind of
things that multiple, multidisciplinary

sort of thinking is really going
to enhance the way that we, we

function, especially with this sort of
explosion of, you know, AI and so on.

So what do you think as someone who's,
so you talked about it as a student,

what do you think, you know, as someone
who is about to graduate, do you feel

Prepared to go into the workforce.

Do you know, like this
hopefully doesn't scare you.

I don't think you should be scared,
but, um, I did see that, um, I think

Meta had said that they had the, in
2025, they will not hire any junior

level developers, um, because they are.

Finding that, you know, they're
going to either, you know, have AI

agents or something to replace that.

It definitely creates other problems,
which is like, if you can't be junior, how

do you become the senior level developer?

There's a, there's a bit of a, you know,
they're creating a bit of a chicken and

the egg, you know, breaking the cycle
somewhere in their, um, Salesforce.

Also said that they will in
2025, they're freezing...

I think all hiring because they are
refocusing and trying to figure out

what their engineering needs are.

It doesn't mean that they will forever
not hire, but they're saying in 2025,

we're not hiring at all, we're putting
a freeze on hiring our engineers, which

is unheard of for that company before,
because every year they would just hire

thousands of people at the same time.

There is a lot of needs for engineers
everywhere else, but I'm just sort

of like painting a picture for people
to know, like, as in, you know, like

beginning of 2025, this is what the,
the climate looks like right now as

someone who's about to graduate and in
the job market networking and so on.

What, uh, how do you feel about this?

Thank you for telling me about it.

Cause I, I didn't know
about that until now.

So that is a little concerning,
especially knowing that the job market

is also really competitive in terms of
the computer science software space.

Um, I've been hearing of people
having a hard time getting software

positions, internships, and jobs.

And.

I think that that's really
discouraging, especially if they're

using AI to replace those careers.

Cause when it's, like you said, taking
away from new graduates and it's also

taking away that, that human aspect
that I was talking about earlier,

although it is efficient and maybe may
save the company some money, you're,

you're taking away those opportunities
of learning and building your sense

of, um, community within that company.

So that's, that is interesting.

But I, I really, by the way, I,
I didn't mean to, um, scare you

during this conversation here, Clea.

Um, but I also think that there is now
a groundswell of people like yourself,

who has the skills, who has the thinking
process, who understand projects, who

understand how to work, you know, to ask,
how to understand, how to ask questions.

That's actually one of the skills that
is necessary for people to, for example,

go with a much more entrepreneurial,
you know, uh, path where there are

software engineers or engineers who
decide that, Hey, you know what?

I'm making something up here.

There wasn't a, a way for, for
the Filipino community to, beyond

Bucknell, but like in maybe in your
area, wherever you end up being, you

know, and, um, and that now you can.

Because of the speed of development,
because of the new tools, because of,

you know, the access to some of this,
these AI tools, um, that I, I heard an, a

very interesting interview that said, we
wonder at what point we're going to see

the first solo entrepreneur billionaire,
which is a really interesting, um, sort

of, and I mean, billionaire is more like
a symbol that I don't think, you know,

I don't even think any of like mere
models like me, um, can even understand

how much money that actually is.

But, but my point, I think the point
of it is more like you can potentially

be extremely successful at this job and
that you might even be, um, able to do

it with far fewer resources than, than
what used to be, you know, you don't have

to become the Google, you know, that has
employees, many hundreds of thousands

of employees in order to do this really
difficult job, it almost feels like

there's a lot more, um, opportunities
for people to be able to say, you know

what, if I think that bringing water to...

you know, places in need is the thing
that needs to exist in the world.

And there is not a business
that is doing that right now.

I can do it because using the
efficiency that's created by AI, um,

what used to have taken, you know,
an insurmountable amount of resource.

Just to do the communication and the
design and the PR and all that I might

in 2026 create agents that can take
care of a lot of that for me so that I

can do things that are more meaningful.

I think that's a really
different kind of future.

I think it's scary on one hand, but it's
also like exhilarating on the other hand.

Yes, for sure.

That's so interesting because I,
I've spoken to people who, when

networking, they didn't like major
in computer science or anything,

but they learned it on their own.

And I guess when learning on
your own, Chat, GPT, or AI

helpers are such a important and
helpful tool to learn as well.

So having that aspect to help you do
things on your own rather than always

relying on having to be taught or
having to buy all of these resources

in order to get things done is so
empowering because you can really

do anything on your own these days
because of all of the resources,

open source platforms available.

But it's also not necessary.

It doesn't have to be really solo.

But imagine if you can run a tremendously
impactful business or organization,

right, that do meaningful things,
but it's just 10 of you, um, right.

It could also be this.

You know, but, but it would
have in the past would have

required a hundred people, right.

And it, like that to me is a really
interesting part of the world that I

don't think a lot of people are exploring
because, you know, there's a lot

about replacing current jobs and, and.

And it might, I think that it will
create, replace some jobs, maybe even

many jobs, um, especially what would be
considered entry level jobs, or maybe

even to a certain degree, mid level jobs.

Um, but I think that.

You know, there, it, it feels like
to me, kind of like what I was

saying before, okay, you save time
over here, but you actually end

up spending the time elsewhere.

So now you're able to push it further.

Yes.

And so I feel like that, you know,
taking something away from one

side will, will inevitably get
balanced out on the other side too.

Um, but it, it is difficult, you
know, especially for folks who

You know, this was forced on them.

This was a natural progression.

You know, if I've had this job for
the last 25 years, um, suddenly I

being forced to re-skill, up-skill,
change skills, change jobs too.

To, to deal with this, you
know, new world, it, it feels

difficult and feels uncomfortable.

Um, but I, I kind of, you know, I was
really interested in hearing sort of from

someone who's about to graduate, right?

I also think about, you know,
for people who are, you know,

freshmen now at Bucknell, right?

Like when they graduate.

Yes.

What does the world look like then?

Because you are already
seeing a little bit of this.

In 2025, right?

Mm-hmm . I like 2028.

Like, that's gonna be
really different, right?

Mm-hmm . And I think the younger
generations now have, they have so

much ambition and now they have a
lot of resources and more tools.

So I see them having more and more
progress and more and more, um,

really cool projects coming out that
they're really passionate about.

And I know they're gonna
achieve so much more.

So.

Well, you are part of the
younger generation, Clea.

Just wanted to say you, you
have those tools as well, and

you, you'll get to use them too.

Um, I, I hope that, by the way,
that it wasn't, uh, you didn't

get scared from that, but, um.

I still have hope, you
know, cause, because I've.

I feel like what you were saying, it's
not enough to be just an engineer.

You need to have all of those skills and
that interdisciplinary, which I think

AI could never replace all of those like
human aspects that makes a person a person

because what, how you provide value in
your work or like you said, your past

experience and your identity, how all
of those aspects of your identity and

what you've been through affect how you
do your current work, which A.I. Could

never have that like history built in.

Yeah, and and that's right.

Actually, A.I. cannot do that for us.

Um, you have to be the one who
you can have a lot of experience.

Someone can read aloud the
experiences to you, but you still

have to go through the heart.

The hard work is how do you process that?

And how do you.

Make sense of all those experiences.

I want to say that all that's
exactly what your reflections did.

You know, like doing the project itself
is one thing, but the reflection is

the part where you had the experience.

Now you get to process it and
you were able to make pretty big

jumps every time, you know, you
build one from one to the other.

And those are the things
that stays forever, right?

Like the C sharp code that you
wrote in for whatever that's going

to get obsolete, unfortunately.

Right.

But, but the ability to sort
of take the thinking and like

combine those experiences.

And then figuring out what kind of
thinker you are, you know, as you would

solve problems, means that by the time
you write the next piece of code that

is not even in C sharp, will, you will
still be able to apply those, right.

And, but it's really about even like
taking coding to design and all of

that is even make it even stronger.

I really believe that.

I think that's, that's,
that's what it's going to be.

And you were talking about augmented
reality and virtual reality before.

I mean, that's another really like.

To me, surprisingly unspoken area
too, you know, I was thinking about,

you know, like if you are training
to become a nurse in 2025 right

now, and you're going to graduate in
2028, we talked about that, right?

It may very well be that you are no
longer, or it may very well be that

the... you know, currently, I think
a lot of nursing majors have to learn

a humongous amount of content, like
the material is staggering, right?

Like every procedure that they're
supposed to know, every condition,

there's all the protocols, right?

I kind of kept imagining with
engineers like you, who's

going to create a safe, secure.

Accurate, non hallucinogenic
version of some kind of AR glasses

that a nurse would be able to wear
comfortably, you know, all day.

And being able to say, like, generally
speaking, if I, you know, have a

patient who is having a certain
kind of symptoms or is having

certain kind of pain or knowing
that they are having a heart attack.

That your

AR will helpfully just go, this is
without going through like public servers

and stuff, you know, like within the
hospital, like it's always safe and it's

not sharing that material with anyone.

Being able to just go here,
here are the next seven steps.

Here are some other additional
things that you need to know.

This is the timing in
which you need to do them.

Etc, etc. Not that the nurse
should just purely count on that.

Having that assistant would
be so incredibly useful.

Yes.

And being able to sort of
say, like, did I do them?

Or did I, like, or you, maybe, maybe
a heart attack is common enough

that you just know that, right?

But maybe you come across something
that you've never done, or you

haven't done in three years.

Mm. Right?

Like, typically, by the way, like
many doctors and nurses in some

of those situations, they actually
have to look things up, right?

They have to, and this is also where
sometimes you, or sometimes some things

you missed and then you, you know,
this is where like practice lawsuits

come in and so on and so forth.

But I could imagine that, you
know, a well developed tool like

that could be, you know, life
changing for, for all of us, right?

In medical care.

Yeah.

And it would allow for, yeah, it would
allow for someone to not count on what

if the nurse got tired because they did
already, it's their 12th hour working that

day and it's been a crazy day, you know,
of all kinds of, you know, high adrenaline

events that happen over and over again.

Right.

It happens.

Right.

And, and what if you can create that
tool and, and what, what does that

change for that nursing students?

You know, like, what if they
end up spending a little less

energy on acquiring all of the
content, which is an investment.

For me, when I see it, I feel like it's
an insurmountable amount of content

that in fact, it just keeps growing
because, you know, people are researching

more, discovering more how to even.

Keep that in the, in our brain, you know?

Yes, it's impressive the work
they do and that there's so

much risk in Incorporating.

They put their lives at stake every single
minute because you never know like you

can Contract whatever it is that's causing
someone to be sick, for example, right?

And so you're doing all of that Like,
I almost imagine, like, wow, you would

be the person, you'll be the kind of
people who would have the skills to

create the AR technology that can help
someone like that, and in turn, it will

help save countless lives, and it will
also change their perspectives a lot too.

So, I remember.

You know, as a kid, I don't know whether
you felt that way too, but as a kid,

I mean, if I'm an Asian family, like
there is some default professions that

are cool to do, doctor being one, right?

Yes, for sure.

And, um, I remember.

Learning the little, littlest
bit about being a doctor.

And it was like, well,
it's a lot of studying.

It was like a huge amount of memorizing,
like lots and lots and lots of facts and

big words and, and, and, and systems.

And I remember thinking.

That's just not for me.

Now I speak with a lot of doctors,
people who had gone through medical

training that says, well, yeah, that
is actually like legitimately really,

really hard, but that's not all I do.

In fact, that's not what I do.

So they think about the world very
differently already, but I have this

like, you know, impression that this
is an unattainable thing because.

It's so, it's so much about memorizing
a huge amount of content and that

I'm just like, that's not for me.

Like I may be able to do it, but like, you
know, like I can't, I don't find that to

be a good use of my, my, my, my, my time.

But if that got taken out of the
equation, maybe not completely,

but like the pressure of like being
tested on those things as being your,

the majority of what you do, right.

It may mean that providing care for
someone, becoming the, the, the,

the, uh, providing, making someone
else's healthy, um, becomes, you

know, part of the equation, like
the bigger part of the equation.

It may change a lot of people's minds.

Yes.

Yeah.

I have a similar story of how people
are saying, I was asking, um, A

friend who graduated and I was asking
her, Oh, we have to learn so much

technical things in our ECEG classes.

Like how much of it do you actually
use similar to how the doctors have

to learn all of these procedures and
memorize a lot of things, but they don't

maybe directly use it in their work.

So I was asking her, how
much do you actually.

Use this because she's
an electrical engineer.

And she was saying not too much,
all of the things that we learned,

because I think the processes at
school are just teaching you how to

learn, teaching you the fundamentals
and what you really do in a real time

job and work is like you learn, like
the processes that your company uses

and you need to learn how to learn.

And that's what school prepares you for.

And being able to find those things that
you need to learn and learn by yourself.

I think that's what AI is really great.

For being able to learn fast on the
job when you need to know these things,

maybe not off the top of your head,
but you have like that background.

That's beautifully said.

Clea, thank you so much for
spending all this time with me.

I really, really enjoyed our conversation.

You are brilliant.

I, I, um, I am so impressed with,
you know, this, you know, what

you have to say and how you think
about the world is fascinating.

Um, I think that, um, those of us,
I'd be listening to this again, but,

and those of us, I think are also
listening right now who are, you know,

from my generation or the, you know,
the, even the older generations should

look at, you know, should listen
closely to what you are telling us.

And what you, how you think about
a world, what makes sense and, and,

and, and how you are, you know,
what your real experience is like.

So that, you know, for those of us who
are in any positions of like making those

kinds of decisions, uh, thinking about
like the future of education, maybe.

So I know that there are people who
are Deans and, you know, Department

Chairs who have the ability to,
to influence where this goes.

I think we have a lot of work to do.

I think we have a lot to do to make
sure that our, you know, like, not

only for you graduating in 2025, but
what about those who are graduating in

26, 27, 28, like we gotta, we gotta do
these things quickly to, to make sure

that you are not going to be, you know,
getting out to the world and, and, and

feel like that you are sort of, you
know, you're not able to contribute,

um, because the real world looks too
different from what was presented to

you in, in, in an education environment.

Um, and I'm so glad that
you're at Bucknell who.

Which, like you said, does not do that.

Um, it allows you to ask questions,
like to work on real world project.

So you hear from here, Bucknell
university, please go check it out.

Um, I think many people already know this.

I'm in school is very well known,
but I, for people who, who are really

not, um, you know, who are thinking
about like, you know, engineering,

for example, like Clea, uh, was.

Should think about what it means to go
to a program that has equal emphasis on

liberal arts, um, on sort of these ability
for you to ask, ask questions yourselves

and to lead teams, um, and do all these
other things that, uh, is, is going to

go beyond just, you know, 25 really,
really hard problem sets, um, right.

Um, and, um.

And for those, uh, last reminder for
those who are looking for the next

generations of the best talents, I think
clear here is certainly one of them.

If you are creating those glasses
for AR, you know, for an AR company,

um, you know, contact her quickly
or she would be off the market.

All right.

Thank you all so much.

And, uh, Clea, I really
appreciate this conversation.

I hope that we can get to,
um, keep in touch and, uh, let

me, let me know how things go.

Okay.

Yes.

Thank you again so much
for this opportunity.

I really enjoyed reflecting on my,
my ePortfolios and all the projects

I've done and how much I've learned
since then and how much Digication

has helped me to, to reflect on these
experiences and to showcase them as well.

So thank you.

Well, I, I, I appreciate the kind words.

Take care and, uh, good
luck with everything.

And congratulations, uh, uh, in advance
on your, your completion of your degrees.

Thank you so much, Jeff.

Okay, take care.

Bye.

Thank you.

Bye bye.

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