Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear part one
of my conversation with Clea Ramos, a

student studying Computer Engineering
and Studio Arts at Bucknell University.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

My guest today is Clea Ramos, a student
studying computer engineering and

studio art at Bucknell University.

Hello, Clea.

Hello.

It's nice to meet you.

Thank you for having me.

I am so happy that you're here.

Um, I have been, uh, working with and
collaborating with your, one of your

professors, uh, Rebecca Thomas, who is
actually also a, um, prior Digication

Scholars Conversations guests.

Um, and we often talk about you know,
the, the, the kind of, um, pedagogical,

uh, approach that she has, you know,
for her students and then some, and,

and which we both admire, but then,
you know, sometimes you talk about

who are some of your students that are
doing really great work and she had, I

feel very grateful that she had shared
three portfolios that you have created.

Um, I, I saw them.

I. You know, I, I read them and, uh,
I was so inspired and I said, Hey,

um, Rebecca, would you mind if, can we
have her on the Digication Scholars?

And that's how this came to be.

And thank you for, you know,
making yourself available.

So you are a senior.

Yes.

Um, so are you majoring both in
computer engineering and studio arts?

I am majoring in computer engineering
and because I've always taken art in

elementary school and high school, I
wanted to pursue arts, especially at a

Liberal Arts Institution at Bucknell.

I was able to take, uh, five art
classes, so I'm minoring in studio art,

mostly focusing on the digital arts.

That's awesome.

So tell me a little bit about yourself.

I. I, I want to say that you,
um, you, you have a connection

with, you, are you a Filipino?

Maybe you have families
from the Philippines.

Is that correct?

Yeah.

So my parents are immigrants, um,
and I'm a first generation student.

So I grew up in Stanford,
Connecticut and went to school there.

And um, I'm now at Bucknell University.

So I, uh, really pride myself on being
Filipino and even at Bucknell, I'm a part

of the Filipino student association here.

And so you're, you're parents are
immigrants, you're a first gen, you

know, U. S., you know, you grew up,
you, you said you were born here?

Yes, I was born here.

And, um, what was that
experience like for you?

Yeah, so, uh, elementary school, I have an
older brother, we went to a small private

school called Waterside School and it
was a school that prioritized minorities.

So I grew up in a really tight knit
community where everyone knew each

other and that school, um, helped
minority and people of culture go

into a really good private schools
for middle school and high school.

So then I went on to Greenwich
Academy and my brother went on

to its brother school, Brunswick.

So we both grew up going
to that environment.

And there I was able to
learn more about, um.

Engineering and art and where I found
my passions there and then since then,

from my high school to Bucknell, um,
because those, my high school and

Bucknell are predominantly white, I
really wanted to stay in touch with

the cultural side because I grew up
with that in my elementary school.

So me and a few friends at Bucknell
came together and we saw Asian

galas happening, all of these events
happening with all their culturals

and we wanted to participate.

So we created, um, the Philippine student
association and we have, uh, bi-weekly

meetings where we help, um, advocate for
Filipino culture and have fun events.

And we're participating
in an Asian gala soon.

That is awesome.

I am a huge, huge fan of Filipino foods.

Yes.

What is your favorite?

Chicken adobo.

Yes, I do love chicken adobo.

My favorite is sinigang.

It's a sour soup.

Yes, I know that.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

I myself from, um, grew up in
Hong Kong and then I moved here.

So like this, I am the first gen,
you know, immigrants in my family,

first gen college attendee as well.

So I really love that you are taking
that culture, um, that you are so

proud of and making something of it.

I think that's, that's
really, that's really amazing.

I would say that one of the things
that I was so drawn by your work

and your portfolio is, is that
you do a lot of reflections.

The portfolios I saw.

Um, I know that you, you have those
portfolios and then you have another

portfolio that linked to a notion site.

Um, that is your art portfolio as well.

Um, it's amazing to see all of these
different, you know, linkages, you know,

everywhere, um, one of the things that
I was, you know, after seeing all three

of your portfolios, I really flicked
through every page, by the way, um, I

read, I read all of it and, um, what's
really the consistent sense of, you know,

what you do to reflect on your learning.

I remember so vividly that.

In one of your projects, it
was about provide a way to, to

monitor the health of water.

Um, right.

And in some of your finding at
the end, you go, well, you know,

like we have some limitations in.

The hardware that we have available
to us and, and the technology and

so on, but you were able to, you,
you learned quite a bit from it.

Um, but those things that you learn that
I thought were the most interesting were

things like iterative design process.

Um, how you communicate,
um, how are you as a leader?

How do you do time management?

How do you think about collaboration?

And yes, you also have the
experience of dealing, you know,

learning the technical skills of.

Working with the limitations of
the, the, the technology that you

had available to you at the time.

But those are the kinds of things like
the microcontroller system, you know?

Yeah.

But those are the kinds of things that,
um, in many ways, that's the thing that is

going to continue to change very quickly.

In fact, I bet you that if you were doing
the project this, this spring again.

It's already different, right?

Because there will be a
better microcontroller.

There will be a better circuit board.

There will be a better set of
technologies available to you, right?

And maybe the condition
would have changed.

You would work with
different people, right?

But it's all of those skills that is
about, um, you know, your own learning

process that feels like is, Is one that is
constantly built one after on top of the

other, like that to me is what I got out
of, like, after reading these portfolios.

What do you think about that?

Yes.

So I remember coming in my freshman year,
spring semester, when I had my first

ECEG - Electrical and Computer Engineering
course with Professor Rebecca Thomas.

And throughout that whole semester, we
were tasked to create a, uh, ePortfolios.

I think that was probably
the first year it launched at

Bucknell, so we were all new to it.

So we were wondering, oh,
what do we put on here?

We're not too familiar how it
works, but we worked on it since

the beginning of the semester and
built on it, um, every few weeks.

And it corresponded to writing down
what we wanted to do as a career

and finding someone to interview
on a career we're interested in.

And through that process, like,
Um, looking at, uh, research

videos, research articles and
reflecting on what we want to do.

And I think that was the first
time I've reflected like that

in an engineering context.

So from there, that was the
first ePortfolio I've done.

And at the end I had a record of, um, how
I thought about my careers and my interest

and how that applied to what I value.

So I valued doing something creative.

I value being able to do
both technical and art.

And that reflection process is something
that you typically don't get in

other STEM classes, such as math or
more technical engineering classes.

So I find it a very valuable skill,
especially as I moved on to higher level

engineering classes where you're still
doing technical work, but sometimes it's

too technical to the point where you
don't realize the bigger context of it and

how it fits in with real world problems.

So, the ePortfolio that you were
mentioning in that project, the

water monitoring system was for
my junior design, um, electrical

engineering and computer
engineering course, uh, last spring.

So, the problem are.

Professors gave for us was to choose
one of the U. N. Sustainability goals

to create a potential solution for and
our class chose the problem of providing

clean water and sanitation to all.

So the first half of the course wasn't
actually making a technical solution.

The first part is reflecting on the
bigger problem and the context as a

whole, identifying the stakeholders,
the people involved, um, any

electrical, um, processes involved.

So that course, that part of the course,
um, was really valuable to see how.

You can reflect and not only
focus on the technical, but

that real, real world aspect.

And still today, I feel like I have
a more, um, holistic view of how to

approach problems because of that
reflection process in engineering

and that I, I see, I asked my other
friends and other majors like mechanical

engineering or chemical engineering.

They don't really have as much of
a, um, design track or a reflection

process as ECEG does, uh, ECEG being
Electrical and Computer Engineering.

So I'm grateful how, for how much I've
been able to reflect and show that in

my ePortfolios because I can always look
back and not only see that technical

progress, but also that reflecting
process of where did I get stuck?

How did I improve?

And then what really matters is
how do I improve in the future too?

And what do I make of this?

What do I take from it going forward?

I was thinking about, I saw, I, one of
the things that I read that it was so

interesting because I heard the same
stories as well, which was, I think

you were saying something about, you
know, your parents had told me of their

process of fetching water, you know,
from wells and having to walk and, you

know, like they basically have to walk.

You know, through like, it's terrible
is through hills and, and, and,

and, and bad weather conditions and
whatnot, just to get water so that

you can bring back fetch water.

And my, my parents were, oh, my,
my dad, his family, his family

were refugees from, from China.

During world war two and, um, they,
they didn't have that water fetching

thing because they were living
in Hong Kong, which is, you know,

sort of a pretty dense city, but
oftentimes they will run out of water.

And so everyone has to go
get in line to get water.

And I remember him.

Telling me that, you know, like,
sometimes they don't even have the

instruments to carry the water.

So they just take plastic, like grocery
bags, like plastic bags, just take water.

And sometimes they break after you get
in line for hours and then get to it.

And then you're like, hopefully
the plastic bag hold up and

then they can bring it home.

And, and to be honest, once you
get home, what do you do with it?

You know, hold on to it.

A collapsible plastic
bag, you know what I mean?

So I'm like hearing these stories and,
and I could, I remember reading that

part and I'm thinking, you know, there
is something that you can take that

experience that is so, even though you
didn't, it came from your culture, it

came from, you know, like stories that
you were able to get from your parents.

Uh, it probably means something a
little bit different to you than to,

To others, you know, and it creates a
different set of meaning to, to the work.

And I, I think that these are the types
of things that create sort of a sense

of like purpose that drives the project
that drives it differently from then.

If your professor just gave you,
here's the problem, go solve it.

Yes.

You, you made this connection
that goes, man, like.

Like, it's not just a problem to solve,
but it's so critical because I can't

imagine going through life without
that, without access to water and that

the alternative is to do that, like,
that's not a good way to live, right?

Um, so it changes the way that
you approach it, doesn't it?

It creates more value because, because
you reflect on why this matters.

You're not doing it just for
a class, just to get a grade.

You're doing it for the people who are
in need, the people who don't have access

to this technology, to this clean water.

And that's why it's so important
in the beginning to reflect on

who are the stakeholders and who
does this project affect, because.

That is where you get that
value for the project.

And sometime, one thing we did think
about was that our system required wifi

because we wanted to push it to ThingSpeak
or, um, an online service where you can

read the data of how clean your water is.

And we were also wondering, Oh, we
wanted to place these devices in, um

developing countries or people like,
yeah, just developing countries.

So we were wondering, Oh, do all of
those places have access to wifi?

So it's also being considerate of the
realistic resources that are available.

So we weren't able to interview
anyone from the places that we

wanted to, potentially, per the
project, but that's also important

getting real world, um, resources and
having that connection to who you're

actually creating the product for.

And I, I think that there is
something maybe even, I want to go

like a little bit more meta on this.

Um, I feel like that, you know, you
have learned in that particular, oh, we

can pick this particular case, right?

Like you, you have this water project
anyway, and then you were able to, to,

to give it more purpose by empathetically
placing yourself in people's shoes,

because these are your parents.

Literal shoes and how they, that had
to walk through, you know, you know,

like, you know, the streets and the,
you know, difficult conditions to

even just to get access to water.

That's how it would, what it would
be like if you don't have this.

Right.

So I think that this idea that, um,
yeah, finding purpose and drive to it is,

is, is important, you know, but I also
would point out one more thing, which.

I, I'm very interested in how students
are finding new paths as they create their

neural pathways and how they think about
the world and make sense of the world.

So in your case, there is also an
abstracted path that sets If I come

across a new problem or a new thing
that I want to solve in life or a new

way to think about the world, I can
look into real world situation, people

I know, people, you know, um, things
that I've experienced and use that

as a way to inform how I might drive,
how to answer that question, right?

So it's one layer more abstracted
than just saying, Oh, I know in

terms of water, this is the answer.

And I get that.

And I think everyone who'd be
listening would be like, Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Like some listeners
may identify with that.

Some would go this first
time I ever heard of it.

As far as I know in the whole world, you
turn on the tab and there comes water.

Right.

Um, and then there are people, by the
way, that has taken that for granted

and didn't realize it in this city.

Right?

If you think about Flint
in Michigan, right?

Yeah, we did that, but
the water wasn't safe.

Right?

So everyone has different stories and
they can, you can take that, but it's the

idea that you are, you have now created a
new path that says, I'm going to be able

to take other experiences that I've had
and then make these kinds of connections.

So to me, that is one layer, a more
sophisticated Like two layers, more

sophisticated than just someone said,
here's a project, solve it, right?

Here's a bunch of water, find a
way to wirelessly, I don't know,

detect is contaminant or, you
know, whether it's safe to drink.

And I think it's also trying to put
yourself in the shoes of the people who

are going through this problem because
like The empathy and the relationship.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

Because one of the things that I think
we can all work on here at Bucknell and,

and under engineering projects is that
empathy and just being considerate of

who we're making these projects for and
how are we designing for, for them, not

just so it works and it's functional, but
to prioritize, um, the value it creates.

That's something that I really admire
about Bucknell, being It has a very

strong engineering program and you're
very brilliant professors who've, you

know, who are very accomplished, but at
the same time, there is a, a very, um,

equally strong liberal arts, um, focus.

I want to talk a little bit about that.

Like I, I'd imagine that you have the
choice and also probably the ability,

you know, to go to schools that are
more purely engineering focused, more

technical, um, maybe less like, so
the liberal arts, you know, sort of,

uh, influenced, um, institutions.

Why did you choose a place where The
liberal art, you can't, you couldn't

just say, I'm going to ignore that.

I'm just going to do the engineering part.

Right.

Um, why did you choose that?

Yes, so when I was applying for
colleges, um, my senior year, one

class that I took that I was really
inspired by was my engineering

and design course in high school.

So that course was 'an intro to
engineering' where we learned, uh, to

learn fabrication techniques such as
laser cutting, 3D printing, working with

perf boards, bread boards, soldering.

But in addition to all of those
technical components, we have

different projects for those.

We also got to do and incorporate artistic
style to each one of those projects.

So one of the projects was a synthesizer
or kind of a musically electronic device

that would play music when you turn
it on, rotate the volume and sound.

And we got to it.

Decorate the enclosure of it.

So I had a really fun time using
Adobe Photoshop and illustrator to

create those, um, that enclosure.

So not only was it artistic, it
was also technical in that sense.

And because I love that class so
much, my teachers and my advisor were

pushing me to go into engineering.

So one of the reasons I chose Bucknell
was for its engineering program.

And also as I was searching, I saw
Bucknell had a lot of opportunities

for the arts, even though it is small.

I did.

I wasn't sure if I wanted
to pursue arts in college.

I just knew I wanted to do a computer
engineering, or I actually came in

as a computer science major because
I really enjoyed that problem solving

aspect of code and I knew Bucknell
had strong engineering program,

but I came in as computer science.

Um, I wasn't sure if I wanted to do art
because I was intimidated by the process

of getting graded by art because sometimes
when I'm graded at doesn't feel like

uniquely me and I can do whatever I want,
I'm doing it for someone else for a grade.

So I wasn't sure if I wanted to do
art, but when I came in to Bucknell,

I saw that they had a Res. College
Program, Residential Colleges.

So you can take a class with the people
in your hall for your first semester

and get to know that community.

So I joined the Arts Res College and
I got to know those people really

well and they're still friends.

I'm still really great friends
with them to this day, like a whole

floor of us are still friends.

So that community and the size also
made Bucknell very appealing because

everyone knows everyone and you
have such unique connection to those

people because I also grew up in
small environments, small schools.

And I also joined, um, a
pre-orientation program with arts folks.

So having that arts was really
important to me and I knew at

Bucknell I could achieve both of them.

So after learning more about the
engineering program, I switched

from computer science, which is more
software based, to computer engineering,

which is a combination of hardware
and software, because my engineering

and design course in high school was
more, um, electrical component based.

So I knew I wanted to
do hands on components.

So that's where the microcontrollers
and the sensors come in.

So that's why I came in as
then computer engineering.

And then I started, um, pursuing
a studio art degree or studio

art minor in my sophomore year.

And since then I've found a really
great way to combine my design skills

because I've learned design in an
engineering context and design in

an art context and graphic design.

And I find it really interesting the
ways that you talk with your clients.

You talk with people that you need
to interview for your project,

and then you keep iterating and
iterating and going back, fixing

anything, any mistakes to improve it.

And you have this final project,
but it's not, nothing is

ever really final in design.

You always keep iterating, you're
only limited by time and resources.

So that's why I really love the
connection between engineering and

art because of that creation process.

And Bucknell allows me to do that.

So, I'm really glad that I was
able to pursue that and hopefully

take these skills to the next
opportunity after Bucknell.

I love all of this.

And I think that it's so great that you.

You know, through this, all of these
opportunities, I think that this idea of

you developing that sense of, you know,
what kind of response, I think you wrote

somewhere, I want to be a responsible
engineer or something like that.

So I'm going to do that effect, um, is.

Is, is so clear that it comes from
this kind of grounding, you know,

I, I will say that, uh, in the, in
the 2010s, I lived in Silicon Valley

for about 10 years and, and I will
honestly say that I met some really

brilliant engineers, especially software
engineers and, um, many of them with

advanced degrees and, and, you know,
like feel like that they are certified

geniuses, you know, um, but, but they.

They are so well regarded by the
big, you know, seven companies that

rules the, you know, the world of
tech, um, that, you know, they get

paid so much money, they get, they
get so many perks, um, that it was.

You know, that, that drive or that
drive of, I want to be doing something

responsible or helping people and all of
that sort of goes into the back burners.

And I, I really do think that there is a
responsibility for education institutions

to make sure that that aspect of
teaching does not get put into the back

burners or that you do it by having one.

Ethics course and, and call it done.

Um, you know, um, I, I, I think that
it's extremely dangerous otherwise,

because then now we have extremely
smart people yielding a huge amount of

power and a huge amount of influence.

Don't know what to do, right?

They, they don't, they haven't.

And I think I saw in one of
your, um, actually I copied it

because I thought it was so cool.

You had said it was you
described in a reflection.

I'm going to read it out because
I, I thought it was really cool.

Let me find it.

It says, Throughout Project 2, I learned
to develop creative thinking skills,

which was much different from Project
1, as we had a set, clear objective.

But in Project 2, we had to come up with
our own questions and exploration paths.

We had to discover ways to
solve our own questions.

So, that to me is a really, it's
really, it's, it's something that

many, actually many schools don't do.

They don't let people do it
because, because they just,

they have too many objectives.

They want to make sure
their students get there.

And if you were to ask your own questions,
you may not do their objectives, right?

And so.

Just for the sake of, you know, being
efficient and make sure that they're

covering all of the checkboxes of
things that they want you to cover.

They, they, they, uh, little bit thinking,
well, you know, it's better that I

give you the problems, you solve it.

And then we know that you can solve
the problem, but you don't get to

ask the questions, like you said,
if you are always going to be very

good at solving problems, so I've,
I've met a lot of people who.

are brilliant at solving problems.

In fact, you, you mention anything and
they're like, I will solve it for you.

Whether you want them to
solve it for you or not.

Um, but if you ask them, you
know, what do you want to do, um,

they have a very difficult time.

Because it's almost like, They were
never given a choice and to give any

experience to, to be good at that.

And I find that being able to ask
questions is, um, it should be

pretty much, you know, as important
as being able to answer them.

Yes.

But if we focus so much on being able
to answer the questions and we're

not allowed to ask, like be the one
asking the questions, it's difficult.

And I think that, you know,
Education, if we look through

even our, it sounds like you had a
wonderful K 12, you know, experience.

But if we look at most curriculum
in general, at least traditional

curriculum, um, at least I can say
that because yours may not be, have

been that way, is that students are
rarely rewarded for asking questions.

Actually, there are Um, very often
rewarded for answering questions.

In fact, that's what an exam looks like.

It's a bunch of questions.

Yes.

Um, it's not a bunch of, it's not a
bunch of questions you get to ask.

It's a bunch of questions
that you have to answer.

And there is a sort of a
right answer typically.

Right.

And so it really reflects on how
little our education system or

maybe even our society values
the ability to ask questions.

Yes.

Because we test you on your ability
to answer them, but we never test

you on your ability to ask them.

Mm hmm.

That's what I appreciate about
what Bucknell has taught me through

the project courses because that
quote you read was from my, that

Engineering 100 first course.

And I remember doing that
like three years ago and.

So they didn't wait till you, they didn't
say you must earn three years of credit.

Now you get to ask the question.

No.

Like right your own project.

Yes.

So I remember like trying to figure out
having that experience was important

to be able to see what is valuable
because we had all of this data.

We had our system working.

But what is valuable to show?

We have dates.

We have times.

Um, so Looking through and being able to
pinpoint what do we think is best to show

and how do we show it was so valuable
and then that carries on for the next

few years in the design tract as in, I
don't, if you saw my EKG 201 portfolio

that was designing, like we made, um,
the DAMS project, it is a acronym for

a machine that we build in sophomore
design where we have to choose a, a, um,

Value choose a problem for it to solve.

So I made a color, a reader where
you can read the color of things

and it has like an educational game
component and with senior design.

Now, all of those questions, open
ended questions that our professors

and curriculum have led us to those
accumulate in our senior design project

where we're getting direction from a
client, but it's also up to us to pinpoint

the things that our client may not have
considered and ask those questions.

And even if the client proposes
something, we should counteract that

and really consider it in relation
to the whole project to see if it's

really good for the whole project.

So being able to question and really
choose what is valuable and what

matters is something that Bucknell
has really, prac ha has allowed me to

practice throughout our projects here.

And I too, that's why I love the, the
program at Bucknell so much as well,

because it's, it is these abilities
that to me is what's going to, um, to

create a world where, you know, we're
doing it not purely based on whether I

can get a job or whether I'm going to
get those perks or this, you know, you

know, the, the, whatever the, whatever
the, the, the salary might be and so on.

It, it, there is a. Uh,
uh, multiple drives.

I'm, I've, those are all things
that you should consider, right?

I'm sure you're thinking
you're senior now.

I don't know what your plans are yet,
which we can talk about later, but

you know that you, you should think
about those things, obviously, right?

But you also, I, I, I just have
this feeling that you're also

not going to just blindly go into
a job just because you're paid.

Um, and, and I feel like that, by the way,
When I was, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm much older,

I'm sort of the last generation, right?

Um, my, I would say that, you know,
my parents probably just, the,

the most important thing is just
to get a job, get a good job, get

a job that pays well, hopefully.

Um, none of them, I would say, ever
expected it to be, you know, to consider

a different dimension of success,
like, do you make something that's

meaningful, that brings you fulfillment
and joy and all that stuff, right?

Because for, for them, it's a
lot more about, you know, if you

can make it up money, then you'll
find the joy later, you know?

Yes, very different definitions of
success from generation to generation.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I, so, so I, I, I think that that's
something that, um, it's easy to get lost

in because we, we, we just have a culture
of not putting a lot of emphasis on

that, being able to question things and,
and being valued and then being, being

able to like get rewarded for that, you
know, like if I were to give it, Okay.

Like, I, I, when I taught, I never
gave exams, but if I were to give

exams, you know, half of it would
have been about asking questions.

Just ask any questions, you know,
um, and, uh, and, and, and, but we

don't do that because it's not the
norm and it feels like getting to the

answer is the more important part.

Um, I actually think
that, you know, like we.

People always talk about getting leaders
and developing leadership skills.

Leaders that can't ask questions.

I don't know how they can lead, you
know, like, like you can only lead

like in those cases, I feel like,
okay, let's say you somehow get the

leadership skill, meaning you got people
to, to do what you want them to do,

except that you don't know what to do.

So where are you leading them to?

Is it up, down, left or right?

Right.

And a good leader is always just
thinking of multiple dimensions too.

It's not just what to do, it's
what you have done in the past.

It's how can you improve.

So it's always asking questions, making
sure you're in line with the team.

And sometimes also just being able to, to
listen to other people's questions too...

'cause sometimes I'm, um, a project
manager on my senior design team

and that involves like servant
leadership, as they call it.

So you're like listening to what
the people on your team have to say.

And how do you form that and like build
on that and ask questions like, okay,

you told me you need this by this date.

How can I help you?

How can I do this for you?

Things like that.

So that is very important
skill as a leader.

I agree.

Yes.

Yeah.

Amazing.

So I. I, I feel like if I don't tell
you this now, you'd think that, you

know, like, why did I hide it from you?

I should share with you that I actually
went to an art and design school as well.

So when you talked about your
design process and I, when I read

about all them, oh, this is lovely.

You talked about the whole
iterative process, but I think

that this is what new generations
of students are all going to be.

I think they're all going to, um, amass
multidisciplinary thinking processes.

So you've acquired a lot of this
engineering and then like you just

talked about project management and
then you talked about art and design.

You know, you talk about working with,
you know, clients and, you know, having to

push back on their, their, their demands
and, you know, these and then engineering

itself, you know, all of these.

different disciplines brings about,
I believe they bring about sometimes

slightly different ways of looking
at the world and different ways.

And I think Liberal Arts actually is
the one that really tries to bring

together a lot of these different ways
of thinking, you know, whether it be

through the lens of religion, whether
it's through the lens of, you know, social

work, uh, whether the lens of law and
society, right, history, but it could

also be about Microbiology, you know.

Um, And, and the different ways of
thinking about the world allows, I

really believe that it allows us to just
have many more tools on our tool belt

to be able to ask and answer questions.

But if we don't develop those.

You become fairly limited in
how you can do that, right?

And some of it comes sort of comes
like by default, like in your case,

your parents having had this experience
of having to gather water is.

Is something that came by
default for you through their

hard work, by the way, right?

But it came default for you and you
can use it, which is fantastic, right?

So this, I think this is really
where I know that right this minute.

Like, people are attacking DI and there's
all kinds of issues around that right now.

But I really think that just the diverse
thinking from all the different fields

and disciplines and studies and world
experience, like lived experiences, is

what will make you a better contributor
to society, because those are the

things you can draw upon, whereas if
you don't have that, you can't, if you

didn't take that design or, you know,
that design engineering course that,

you know, in your senior year in high
school, you wouldn't have been able

to draw from that to know what to do
next, you know, and And, and that to

me is, is going to be really critical.

I, I saw in one of your, um, internships,
actually, I think in two, maybe not

just one, that you had worked on some
areas where, um, there was one, I think

it was in a cybersecurity company and
another in, um, I think it was like web

development or something, but it, yes, it.

At least one of them had something to do
with AI, I think, the cyber security one.

There's the second one, um, it
was a Machine Learning Internship

at Flowcode in New York.

Yes.

Right.

So.

Given, you know, where that's going,
I think that's an interesting one

to maybe spend a little time on.

What are your thoughts on AI and
what that means for you as, first

of all, as a student, but also as
a student who's about to graduate?

I'm assuming you're about
to graduate this summer?

Yes, this spring.

Um, this spring?

At the end of the spring semester?

By the way, before we deal
with that, what's your plan?

What are you doing after?

So, I am currently job
hunting and networking.

Uh, because of my interest in
both tech and art, I'm looking

for a position to work in.

My first choice would be something
in VR, XR, so Virtual Reality, and

Augmented Reality, because I have those
skills and it's, I feel like I have

a niche combination of both tech and
art, so something with VR development,

so some options would be, um, creating
simulations or game design, uh, Another

option I've been looking into is
web design, web development, because

again, that combination of coding and
design, um, maybe software engineering.

So I've just been connecting and
reaching out to alumni and professors.

So if you have an opportunity that, uh,
lies around at the intersection of art

and STEM, I would love to hear about it.

So for anyone listening, um, if you,
your neighbors, your friends, anyone,

you know, is looking for, I think that by
now, if you listen in, I think it's like

40 minutes or so, um, you probably have
gotten a really good feeling about Clea

and the type of people that, the type
of person she is, but also, you know,

how, you know, today, I think being A
pure engineer is simply not good enough.

It's an engineer with heart, with
empathy, with the ability to reflect,

the ability to bring, bring her
history and her lived experience

and even her culture and everything
to it is what's going to make her.

I believe, you know, an ideal, really
strong candidate for any of those

jobs that are related in those areas.

So if anyone's listening, we'll put your,
uh, um, information into, into the show

notes, um, you know, contact her because,
um, She'll, she'll get, I, I, I think

that you're going to get snatched up and
you will have lots of offers and, um,

yeah, I don't think you should worry.

I hope so.

You, I, I think that you'll, you'll,
you'll, you'll be, you'll be a

great find for lots of people.

Thank you.

Hopefully you're not too late.

Those who are listening and going, oh, I
better con connect with her and we'll put

your LinkedIn profile and your portfolio
has a LinkedIn link there as as well.

And your art, you know, link and all that.

Ra we'll, we'll listen.

Yes.

It's linked Everything.

Yep.

Here's a preview of what's coming up
next In part two of my conversation

with Clea Ramos, a student studying
computer engineering and studio

arts at Bucknell University.

I still have hope, you know, because,
because I'm, I feel like what you were

saying, it's not enough to be just an
engineer, you need to have all of those

skills and that interdisciplinary, which
I think AI could never replace all of

those, like, human aspects that makes
a person a person because what, how you

provide value in your work are, like
you said, your past experience and your

identity, how all of those aspects of
your identity and what you've been through

affect how you do your current work.

Which, AI could never have
that, like, history built in.