Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear Part Two
of my conversation with Tonya Hendrix,

Demetri Kapetanakos, and Dionne Miller
from LaGuardia Community College.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

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Now, I think that LaGuardia, you
also I think that one of the really

cool, smart things, and I don't know
whether this is part of the calculus,

but I know that there is, you know,
at least in the past, uh, some, some

idea of co-ops, you know, for students
to work, you know, with internships

and so on, it really almost like.

Like immediately prove that, doesn't it?

Um, because you are, you are also
in the real world and saying, Hey,

actually what I'm doing matters
and there is a place for it, right?

Yeah, we definitely have developed
over the last few years, I now focus on

Experiential Learning, even beyond the
internship idea, but helping students

to see how what they're learning in
the classroom can actually impact their

communities and make things better.

And that's really a
powerful form of learning.

I think of it as transformational learning
when students can take this thing that I'm

learning in whichever class and apply to
some issue or problem in my community and

see that knowledge making a difference.

You know, I came from a background
where in high school, my principal had

a big focus on what she called a rounded
education, which, which now, you know,

I equate to a Liberal Arts education.

And when I went to college, it was, well,
we're not educating you for a particular.

Skill or job.

We're educating you to be able to learn
so that wherever you find yourself

you have the skills to learn something
new something that's applicable to the

situation that you find yourself in and
you know, I think that's what we aim for

at LaGuardia in our Liberal Arts program
that we're giving students the skill to

to learn wherever they find themselves,
whatever it is that they're doing and

also to Apply that knowledge to their
their communities and see that their

knowledge is not just for them and their
personal ambitions, but also can impact

community that they should care about.

It is so, so powerful.

And I actually think that there's
a something, you know, like, um,

what you just said echoes with me so
well, because there is, it's really

different when a student is driven
by something that they can see and

experience and they can believe in.

Because this is my, my community
is my family, is my friends.

These are my, you know, relatives
that when I do these things, it

actually worked for, for them, right?

That to me is an even more direct, you
know, sort of, um, because I think that

some of it is sometimes kind of myth like.

I have, uh, teenagers in my, in my
household, and sometimes they would go,

Hey, I knew someone who You know, um,
you know, who, you know, I saw someone

that does this job and, and they were
going to charge a charge us a lot of

money because we have to, you know,
fix something or whatever it might be.

And, and, and, and we require the
service and then it go, well, that

would be a really great profession.

That's what they, where they're
learning that from, right?

They are getting that.

But, but they're exposed
to so little of it.

That's whatever that came first.

It seems like I could
see myself doing that.

And immediately they
go like, let's do that.

And I, and I, I think that the, the
idea that they, they just didn't

really quite get the exposure.

If, if they were exposed to
Leonardo da Vinci, they might

have been painters instead.

I don't know.

Right.

Or they might've been writers instead.

So I, I just think that there's
a little bit of this sort of.

It's slightly myth based right now, um,
that, Hey, you know, these skills gets

me a job and a paycheck where those
don't, I don't think it's actually true

because there are plenty of people.

And in fact, you know, uh, Demetri had
said, Hey, you're from the Ivy leagues.

You know, actually these kids
get a lot of jobs and good jobs

and good start paying jobs.

And guess what?

Most of their degrees are
largely Liberal Arts-based.

Um, and so it's a, uh, it's, it's a little
bit, it's sort of like weird that, you

know, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes,
you know, I love what you just said, we're

not a workforce development, we want to
provide them with an education, right,

that encompasses Critical thinking, but
also like when I saw your, the template,

can we talk about that a little bit?

You created a template, which was
really a big part of your paper.

And I don't want to have
this whole conversation.

We're talking about that.

Um, you, you have this template
that you've created and clearly

you wanted to share it with others.

Um, that had, you know, six, I
think it was like six or seven big.

Pages, big topics, um, I will share
the paper so people can really read

the details for those who are really
interested, but it would be great

if you all can maybe talk a little
bit about that and what are some

of the, the big ideas from this.

Do you want me to start?

Well, go ahead, Demetri.

Okay.

I think, well, I mean, I think the
page, I mean, the template that we

came up with really comes out with a
project that Dionne sort of, you know,

um, really wanted to sort of build
a Liberal Arts identity and think

about how could students be engaged
in the Liberal Arts on a meta level.

So, Tonya and I really were
thinking about how do we layer.

The levels of reflection and identity
building that are needed in order

to sort of come out and say, Yeah, I
know what the value is of the Liberal

Arts, what we've been talking about.

How do we get the students slowly
but steadily to build to that point

when they're like, Aha, I got it.

And that really is about sort of building
step by step and thinking through how does

that fit into a larger curriculum, right?

What are the points in the curriculum
that we want them to be like, stop

and think instead of just saying,
okay, I'm just going through this.

And I think, again, this idea of
reflection and identity building

are the two major components of.

This template.

So and I think it's taken students beyond.

This is the Liberal Arts.

This is what I'm learning to.

I am the Liberal Arts.

The Liberal Arts matters to me.

It's integ... It's integral to who I am.

And so we're, you know, we're trying
to transition the students, right?

So we're... They embody their Liberal Arts
education, because I truly feel deep in

my heart that if a student can explain
to somebody what the Liberal Arts is.

Right?

You are far ahead and above and
beyond most students who graduate

with Liberal Arts degrees.

And that's part of what we're asking
them to do, starting from the very

first sem very first, uh, semester
in their first year seminar class.

This is what people say
the Liberal Arts is.

What do you think about this?

How is this going to help you?

In college, how can this
help you beyond right?

Start to really embody
what is Liberal Arts.

So it is kind of speaking about
what Dionne mentioned earlier, an

experiential learning process, right?

Delving into the Liberal Arts.

How does this matter?

Like Demetri said, in my
everyday life, it's Liberal Arts.

Let me ask you this.

It's liberal.

Should people be looking at Liberal Arts,
sort of this thinking, this mindset.

A skill that they can learn
and develop and be more

sophisticated over time with it.

I would say absolutely.

I think we have this mindset that
we were, when we were born, given

this many cards of intelligence.

And it's still, like you
said earlier, a myth.

We know now that's not true.

Our neural networks can
be retrained and reshaped.

So if that's true, we can continue to
learning, which is why all three of us

have said something about getting the
skills to continue learning, right?

Because you can continue to learn.

I think Demetri and Dionne will agree
that the work that we did in order to

get our advanced degrees, or at least
I know for me, does not It doesn't

figure into my everyday life now,

but it did teach me skills that I
still, I have to write emails on a

daily basis, not that I enjoy the
process at all, but I have to, right?

I have to write emails.

You have to be able to
communicate with people.

And that's one of the foundations
of a Liberal Arts education

is communicating your ideas.

And as you said earlier, when
we practice those skills.

We get better at doing them.

I also want to just pop in and add, I
think, you know, we were, we've been

talking about how jobs have been such
an important part of our identity.

Like when we always ask
someone, it's what you do.

And I feel the Liberal Arts adds
another layer of identity where it

becomes, well, what are your passions?

What are you thinking?

What are you interested in?

And it's just a different way of.

I think identifying yourself and
also walking through the world,

both at the same time, right?

Right.

It's a way to know yourself better.

So I tell my students all the time, it's
okay if you didn't like these particular

chapters in your biology textbook.

You may like other chapters.

Part of knowing.

It's knowing what you don't
know, and that's not at all

reflected in our society.

No one can know everything, but if you
know what you don't know and you're

able to learn, then you can go get it.

I think that what you are all doing
here is so incredibly important.

One of the things that I. I
feel very strongly about is that

it feels like to me that reflection
should be a skill that you can

differentiate from when you were
a baby all the way to you are.

I'm, I'm not even, I'm going to skip
over PhDs, but I'm talking about life,

you know, all the way to when you, you
know, eventually, you know, disappear

from earth, all of that experience.

You know, it's a skill that you get.

And by the way, it has been the truth
for humanity throughout the history.

That's why, you know, the native Americans
have the elders and Chinese talk about,

you know, like what happens when they, you
know, when, when, uh, you know, how do you

think about, um, you know, people who have
experience and, and they're enlightened

because they've gotten all the meditations
over time and so on and so forth.

Um, But, but my thinking about it,
that to me, that one of the big

observation that I've, I've had for a
long time, and I've, I'm continuously

puzzled by it is that we pay so much
attention to skill level it, when it

comes to something like let's call.

I'm not using the as an attack,
by the way, but I'm using as an

example, let's take math because
none of you guys here teach math.

So I don't feel like I'm impacting you,
um, but it really applied to almost every

domain where we know that, you know.

Like at kindergarten, you are at
this level, being able to have

concepts of counting and whatnot.

At certain level, you're able to
do certain kind of arithmetic.

And then at some level you're
doing pre-calculus, calculus, et

cetera, and so on and so forth.

And we, I'm not even criticizing and
whether they are value and whether we

should have them, but my point is see
how sophisticated we've differentiated

each and every level of this.

Yet, when we talk about reflection,
which to me is much more important

because it literally is a building
block of our neural network, like, um,

Tonya, you had just mentioned, yet we
are still relatively sort of soft about

what just reflect you learn to reflect.

Like, I don't have the vocabulary
to say now that you are a, you know,

graduate of this or now that you are, you
should be able to do it at this level.

Like your neural network should be
this thick and this wide, or, or

at least have, you know, have been,
have been able to process things

that are off the sixth degree, right?

We are not really even
putting enough effort into it.

To really do it aside, aside from a
program like yours, where you've dedicated

an entire program where people can
actually have a degree on in Liberal

Arts, where you are, you know, like
really thinking through like, well,

the curriculum is how to think is the
ability to develop purpose and need.

And by the way, developing purpose and
meaning to me is what's really beautiful

about what you, you all had talked about,
because it's not just about getting that

paycheck either, because, you know, there
are, there's getting a paycheck in a way

that is fulfilling and there's a paycheck.

That's just a paycheck.

Um, you know, um, and, and, and it
doesn't feel right to just get our

students to get a paycheck without
giving them that fulfillment.

And I think that's one of the
benefits of a college education.

So you should transition from having a
job to having a career where you have

a vested interest in the processes and
the outcomes other than the paycheck.

And one thing I think that we're kind of
skirting around is the idea of innovation.

So critical thinking is what allows
us to innovate, but it is like you

mentioned before, reflection is not
built into any curriculum, right?

And for a lot of us who teach a lot of
us teach the way that we were taught

and we weren't taught to ask a student,
'You just learned a lot of chemistry and

you're supposed to be in a biology class.

How do you feel about that?' We're
we're not We're not taught to do that.

So it requires us to be innovative
ourselves in order to train our

students to be innovative, right?

Because that's where innovation
comes from reflection.

And you're right, Jeff.

It's a hugely important skill that we
should just as human beings be able to

better, um, like delineate the stages.

Stage zero reflector, your
stage two reflector, right?

And if you do a X, Y, and Z,
you'll can level up, right?

Your reflection ability
is really important.

I mean, maybe it doesn't even have
to be so sequential, you know,

but I think that for us not having
even the sophistication level to have.

You know, a discussion where
we can just say, Oh, okay.

You know, I see that you are, you
know, you're able to reflect in

this way, which is very powerful.

And when you combine it with this other
kinds of reflection, this is where

a really confident, you know, like
a really cool, like you are, you're

going to be really good at the, the,
you know, creative, you know, you,

you'd be a great screenwriter and, and,
and, and, and, and, and, uh, you know,

and a playwright, et cetera, right.

Could I just say, um, I think the
other thing too, that the Liberal Arts

provides is imagination and possibility
of other ways of looking at the world.

I mean, I just have to sort of bring
up a topic that I've just listened to.

Um, a book called 'The Sea People - The
Puzzle of Polynesia.' And one of the

things that blew, my mind is the way,
um, these peoples were able to navigate

the sea, not with a single chart, looking
at stars, looking at swells, looking at

birds and, you know, and it's, you know,
and they were mentioning this, um, 18th

century priest who sailed with cook named
to Paya and he did a map and they're

like, it doesn't look like any map.

That is actually readable because he
used the positionality of a Polynesian

where they were sort of jumping from
island to island and using sort of

different modalities of thinking,
right, in order to be able to navigate.

And I love that as a metaphor for
the Liberal Arts too, right, about

both us as how could we spark that
imagination and what could come up.

As a result of it, right?

I mean, it's just a
different way of viewing.

It's a different way of seeing the world.

It's a different, it's
a different empathy.

It's a different feeling, you
know, and I just want to, I mean,

again, any opportunity now I
have to bring up the Polynesians.

I'll take it, but I do think it
works really well as a metaphor here.

I think that's so beautiful.

And by the way, this idea of empathy.

Making meaning, you know,
finding passion, et cetera.

It, you know, to me is, you know, it's
one of those, um, one of those things

that humans are privileged to have, you
know, like we, we have a lot of choices.

In life and we get to develop passion
about something and we get to have

that sense of fulfillment by if we can
identify it, we can go for it and it

would be the best feeling one can have.

And it also includes things like, you
know, doing things for your family,

doing things for your loved ones,
doing things for your friends, right?

These things don't give you a
paycheck necessarily in and of itself,

in most cases, at least, right?

But they are things that we do, and as
humans, we actually, that's a privilege.

That's something that we, we get to
do, and it's something that, um, you

know, um, uh, It doesn't matter whether
you're, you're, it, it, it, it, there's

no, um, uh, stock market for it.

There's no, um, corporate tax on this.

There's no, there's, there,
there's no, that you do it for

just a pure joy of doing so.

And I feel like that.

In education, um, it's, it's important
for us to think about that being like,

that can't not be one of the goals,
you know, for our students to, to, to

be there, to be at that, to have that
sort of, to be able to enjoy that.

Um, and I, I do think that it really, to
me, I, I, I have, I have so much respect

for, for all the fields, by the way.

So I, I mean, it, it almost sounded
like the, I'm like beating up on,

Hey, if you want to be a nurse.

Don't do that because that's just a skill.

No, actually, I think that people that
do it is because they have that passion,

you know, but it would be terrible in
my mind for someone that don't have that

passion and then they do it because they
heard it's a good way to get a paycheck.

And then when they do that job.

They do do get that paycheck and, and
I'm sure you can train them to the

level where they can do it, but they
are just going to be unfulfilled.

They're doing this where they really
want, they really want to be as an

athlete or to be a painter or to be
a writer or to be something else,

to be a communicator, you know?

Yeah, no.

And I mean, you have people like Abraham
Verghese, who, um, you know, doctor.

And an incredible writer, you know, first
book about his experience working with

AIDS patients in Tennessee in the 1990s.

And then he writes some incredible
novels where he could straddle that line

between, you know, science, you know,
hardcore science as a very, I mean, well

known and quite sort of renowned doctor.

And at the same time,
An incredible writer.

And those are, you know, multiple
identities that our students already have.

And it's a question of, again, how do
they, I think, establish new ones and keep

adding to them and that they don't have
to be defined by discipline, right, right.

So that, you know, There there's
multiple ways of being that you

can be the same body, right?

You know, I usually, you know, say
to students, you can be interested

in science and in art and in history.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

It's possible to have multiple interests.

You know, you talked about
Leonardo da Vinci earlier.

to be a painter who's interested in
anatomy and physics and engineering,

and it's possible to be that person.

You know, when we, when I conceived
of this project, part of, of what I

was pushing back against is, you know,
students come into the college and they

have to pick a major and Liberal Arts
became the place that you went if you

weren't sure what you wanted to be.

And that was somehow a bad thing.

All right.

So.

People who want to be nurses or
engineers or any of the really

well defined programs, fine.

You're not quite sure
yet what you want to do.

Okay, go into Liberal Arts and
figure it out, and then you'll

switch into something else.

And we wanted to position the
Liberal Arts major as an end in

itself, as a good thing to be.

And we, we, you know, going
back to the template, this idea

of helping students recognize.

The value that Liberal Arts
Um, has in and of itself.

Yes, it gives you all these skills.

But yes, just being a creative,
curious person is a great thing

to be and just as great as being a
nurse or an engineer or or a doctor.

And, um, and also just even to say
to students studying the Liberal

Arts open so many pathways to you.

You can still be creative.

the engineer or the nurse or, or the
doctor having studied Liberal Arts.

But think about how much better you
will be because you, you understand

more about people and cultures.

If you're a healthcare professional
who understands, you know,

more about different cultural
backgrounds of your patients, just

how much better the standard of
care you could, you could offer.

So we really wanted to make sure
that students realize the value.

Of the Liberal Arts for them, whatever
pathway they eventually chose.

I love that, Dionne.

Um, by the way, uh, Demetri, you
know who else also is a fantastic

writer, but also a physician?

It's, um, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

Who wrote Sherlock Holmes.

True.

You are still watching movies
on Sherlock Holmes today.

And that was written in
the Late 1800s, right?

I think it's late 1800s.

It was written.

And so, so, you know, this is, these are,
in other words, these are not new ideas.

We have amazing people in our history
that we can look back in and say, wow,

you know, these things happened, right?

But, but how are we so, um, you
know, how are we, how are we missing

these really important pieces?

And I'm so glad that you You know,
beyond your program have taking a,

uh, taking this so seriously and
going, hold on a minute, you know,

we've got to, we've got to make,
make this a possibility for people.

Now I want to maybe, um, um, we'll,
we'll wrap up in a minute, but I

wanted to talk a little bit about.

What you see, and this is something that,
you know, you might have some anecdotes

or you might have some students as
examples, or just, you know, in general,

your students going through this program,
they're creating these portfolios,

they're doing these reflections.

Can you give us some sort of like
example, some colors on what are

the results like has have there have
students, you know, gone through this

and going, wow, this changed my life or.

Wow.

And now I do this and that, um, like,
can you give us a little bit of that?

So that people like, I think that
there's still this like illusion

that, well, if you're starting to
become a mechanic, you can fix it.

Um, okay.

Like we got that.

Um, if you studied.

Liberal Arts.

What are the results?

And I'm talking about both the
tangible, like, Hey, maybe, you know,

what jobs or what fields can they
go into, but also like, what else

does it, does it come with that?

We just, that, that correspond
to what we've been talking about,

I think for me, um, I said before that
I teach first year seminar and first

year seminar is where we introduce the
Liberal Arts Corey portfolio to students.

And for me, yeah.

What I love is students begin to
see themselves as whole individuals.

They begin to understand that
When I'm exploring my major, I'm

exploring the world and I'm exploring
myself so that they begin to make

internal and external connections.

So then, you know, the reflect
is, of course, prompted by

reflection, but the imagination in.

The innovation I can
see sparked in students.

So, when we talk about things that
students don't expect to hear about,

because in my case, they're science
majors, it's like a flower opening up.

It's a really beautiful process.

You feeling okay, Tonya?

Feel free to take your time.

You choked up there, really, thinking
about your students, I think.

For those who are listening, Tonya, I
think, choked on a little bit of water,

so she'll be back with us in a minute.

But I could see how it's getting.

You know, I can also, yeah, you
know, I think about the student

last year who was the representative
for our graduating class.

And.

That was one of those experiences as
an educator where you really say, Yes,

this is this is what we're striving for.

She was a student who graduated
from our Liberal Arts, social

science and humanities major,
and she was transferring.

to become a biology major.

And I was just like, wow, this
is exactly what I want to happen.

I want a student to realize that
no pathway is closed off to them

because they chose the Liberal Arts.

And so she was going from a non
STEM major into a STEM major.

And she talked about, she was
interviewed by, um, the university,

um, student life office.

And she talked about, how valuable
she found the Liberal Arts program at

LaGuardia in exposing her to different
ideas across different disciplines.

And I said, Yes, this
is my perfect graduate.

This is what I hope to accomplish
that here we have a student who

could without any prompting from us.

I had no idea she was doing this
interview until I saw it published that

she could talk so fluently about how
exposure to multiple ideas in multiple

courses across the Liberal Arts major
was really valuable to her development.

And she could then transition from this
major into being a biologist because

having experienced all the different,
um, disciplines that we introduced her

to, she could settle on, okay, yes, this
is the one that inspires my passions

and makes me want to, to learn more.

And I hope she never loses that in
whatever it is that she eventually,

you know, lands on in her career.

Um, I could also tell the story, because
I was trying to think, because I have

not taught, um, well, upper level, 200
level courses in a while, LaGuardia.

But I actually had, um, a scenario this
past, um, summer where I had a student

who was finishing her associate's degree.

At, um, at LaGuardia in
deaf, in, um, deaf studies.

It's a Liberal Arts concentration, right?

So it's a Liberal Arts degree.

And, you know, she's like, you know,
I need to finish, I'm going to, you

know, finish the degree to Oklahoma.

So she took it as an opportunity to, you
know, come here and we started talking.

And like I said to her, well, what are you
going to do when you go back to Oklahoma?

She's like, well, I
want to be a translator.

I'm like, yeah, is that it?

You know, she was telling me the story
how every Sunday she was going to a, um,

uh, a church with, um, deaf congregants.

And I was like, let me tell you, girl, if
you were going to write a master's thesis,

A sociological thesis on religion and the
deaf community, I would read it, right?

And she's like, I'd
never thought about that.

I mean, you know, it opens up
possibilities instead of saying, okay,

I'm going to be a deaf translator.

Well, how could you engage with
the world and understand it in

ways that you never thought?

possible.

And that's just one small example,
but I mean, you know, she wrote me a

lovely letter saying, Oh, thank you so
much that, you know, class that she was

literally taking in her last semester,
all of a sudden opened her eyes.

Like, I wish I knew this
at the very beginning.

And yet I hope again, there was that
little sort of, as we say, imagination

and possibility that the Liberal
Arts provides in that one student.

That is so lovely.

Um, Well, I, I feel like that's, first of
all, let's try to invite some of these.

Students and graduates so that we can
have more conversations with them as well.

So we're gonna, we're gonna,
we're gonna talk to them too.

And we're gonna, you know, so
the people can, can see from your

perspective, how you think about it,
but also from their perspective, right?

Um, I think that would be a great,
um, some great follow up conversations

that we should, we must have.

Uh, but I also want to just
say how grateful I am that you

three are here to share these.

Different perspectives and how grateful
again and thankful that I am to have

the opportunity to work with you all
and seeing what you're able to, to

accomplish, uh, with your students.

These are like really very seriously
inspiring highlights and, and I, um, I

am, uh, I am just so, um, amazed by the
continuous drive to continue to do that.

And I think it's because your
institution has that Liberal Arts,

um, foundation as driven by that.

I think you had mentioned earlier
from Gail Mello, who my met years ago.

And she's amazing.

She has created this
amazing culture there.

And, and you all think in this way.

Um, and I, I just, I just love that,
um, for folks who don't know, um enough

about LaGuardia Community College,
please Google them, check them out.

Um, they, this is what a wonderful
institution, um, and for folks who,

um, who, um, are not, who, who may
not have been exposed to what Liberal

Arts education can do for you.

Um, check out that paper, you will see,
you know, I think you'll be inspired

just like I did, even though it's a,
it's really written as an academic paper.

I think I thought it was, um, you
know, suitable for anyone to read.

Um, uh, you may not, you know, need
to read every little piece of it.

It's a long paper, but there will be
enough that you'll get a lot out of it.

Um, and, and this stuff that, you know,
Dionne and Tonya, and Demetri are sharing.

They're not just, you know, things
that are, you know, just nice

to have, and they just happen
to do it for fun, for no reason.

You know, this is backed by lots of
research, lots of efforts, and huge

amount of commitment by dedicated
people who have found their meanings.

The life and have, have dedicated
that purpose to building these so that

other people can enjoy it as well.

And so I hope that you all go in and
check this out and congratulations

again for all your successes.

I, and I hope that we get to talk
again soon and we'll get some of

your students and graduate to come on
this and then we'll have you guys to

come on this afterwards as well, and
then, and then see how they all go.

Okay.

We'll, we'll keep, keep in touch.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having us.

Here's a preview of what's coming up next
in part two of my conversation with Tonya

Hendrix, Demetri  Kapetanakos, and Dionne
Miller from LaGuardia Community College.

So being able to question and really
choose what is valuable and what

matters is something that Bucknell has
really, has allowed me to practice.