Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear Part One
of my conversation with Tonya Hendrix,

Demetri Kapetanakos, and Dionne Miller
from LaGuardia Community College.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

Welcome to DigiCation
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

My guests today are Tonya Hendrix,
Demetri  Kapetanakos, and Dionne Miller

from LaGuardia Community College.

They are authors of a paper
recently published at the

International Journal of ePortfolio.

The title of this paper is Creating
an Integrative Student's Liberal Arts

Identity, a reflection on the process
of building an ePortfolio for a

community college Liberal Arts program.

Welcome, everyone.

And, uh, I want to say, first of
all, I've always been a huge fan and

admirer of LaGuardia community college.

It is just, it's been a, uh, an
honor and a pleasure to have been

able to work alongside folks at
LaGuardia throughout the years.

And, uh, I think we've had now something
like a 15 year long relationship.

Um, and it's, it's just one
of the highlights of my life.

It's literally, is it's now a. A big
portion of my life and, and it's one that

has been so, um, I'm, I'm continuously
inspired and impressed by all that you do.

And, and the thing about
it is it doesn't stop.

It was amazing in the
beginning of that journey.

It is still amazing 15 years later.

And today we have three really
just amazing educators here.

Um, so I wanted to just.

Um, maybe go around really quickly,
ask you, what do you do at LaGuardia?

Really quickly.

Tell us that maybe starting with Tonya.

Hi everybody.

Um, I currently teach First Year Seminar
classes and Biology classes at LaGuardia.

Great.

And Dionne.

I am an associate dean for academic
affairs and I serve among other

things as the program director
for the Liberal Arts major.

Awesome.

And Demetri.

So, um, I teach first year seminar, I
teach English classes, and I'm actually

really, really excited because I'm
actually teaching Classical Lit in

Homer for the first time to my students,
so Sounds fun, and uh And nerdy!

Jeff and I'm sure that I'm
sure that there you find race.

Well, just having interacted with
you a little bit, I'm sure you find

really good ways to engage with
them, which is a lot of what we're

going to be talking about today.

Um, I, I am so, so impressed
by the paper that you wrote.

And I, I remember I w I read it and, and.

It actually co... coincides with a
lot of how I've been feeling a lot

about, and it really starts with.

Actually, there is a somewhat of a decline
confidence in higher education today in

the higher education landscape, not only
I'm not talking specifically for, you

know, any kinds of like colleges or, you
know, regions or the, you know, or, um,

you know, uh, but, but more in general,
there has been a decline in confidence

in higher education, um, because of a
sort of a drop in belief that the value

of a degree, what it means, and I think
that in your paper it really, you know,

you had said that it, it had literally
gone from something like 74 percent to

41%, you know, based on a study and,
and that's, that's alarming to me.

Right.

It's alarming to me, by the way, not only,
you know, I don't believe that we should

just blindly think that higher education
is, and that the degree is good for you,

but we should realize that if it went from
74 percent to 41%, what changed and what,

what could make that be the case, right?

So Dionne, maybe I want to ask you first,
as an Associate Dean, you are someone

who, who would be looking at these things.

Both you're thinking about, you know, from
a student standpoint, the well being and

all of that, but you're also looking at
the bigger picture of where we're going

as a college, you know, in your program.

So tell me a little bit about what
you think, what you think when you,

when you discover these numbers.

It's very alarming, Jeff.

I agree.

I believe in the purpose of education,
just as not only for the individual,

but also for society at large.

You know, I think apart from giving
our students skills so that they

can, um, make progress economically.

That's important.

But we're also giving our students
skills to make them good citizens.

And when we don't have students in our
classroom, we don't have a chance to give

them the tools to really allow them to
fully participate in their society and to

improve, you know, our role as a species.

overall, um, in the world.

So that really alarms me because, you
know, I think just knowledge is such a

basic fundamental right and something that
all of us should be striving to attain, no

matter what it is that we do in the world.

Yeah.

And Demetri, what does Homer say?

Oh, I don't know.

I mean,

I was actually reading the Iliad yesterday
and it's really, One of the things that I

feel is missing and being at LaGuardia and
working both with people like Dionne and

Tonya is thinking about how could we be
reflexive about why all of this matters.

You know, why does the
liberal arts matters?

Why do these different
ideas swirling around?

Why does this possibly blind poet
from 8th century Greece still matter?

And they all do.

And I feel that one of the things
is that we live in a society right

now where this idea of reflection is
missing and we really need to think

about how could we bring that back,
not only to social media, not only

into the way we read people, but also.

That the value of an education
is about helping you all do that.

And Tonya, do you see the same
thing in your, your classes as well?

Absolutely.

Um, I think about students and their
ability to, to do critical thinking.

Um, when I teach the scientific
method, I teach it as evidence

based critical thinking because
it is, and it's a necessary skill.

Um, so when I think about our students or.

Anybody that I love and care for, what
I want you to be able to do is take the

facts and make them mean something and
not have somebody else do that for you.

So I'm afraid that, you know, I
don't really like to talk about

politics really, but there's this
idea that an educated populace.

It's not good for somebody.

It's obviously good for us as
citizens, but who is it not good for?

And that's something, um, that we
should consider for our students

and help our students to consider.

And, and by the way, um, I want
to, I want to point out something

that I think it's a myth.

I think it's people.

I think people, um, sort of puts
this identity onto folks who are in

the sciences in STEM to think that
these are people who only likes

to deal with the black and whites.

They do not value reflection.

They think it's too soft.

They think it's too touchy feely.

It is a hundred percent untrue.

We have someone on the panel right
now who teaches in biology and

then another teaches Homer, right?

And that both of them are talking about
the value of reflection and value of

what it means to be a productive citizen.

And these are the kinds of things that
to me, I want to go back to Dionne.

You, you very just succinctly had
said right away, we need these

people to become productive citizens.

We want them to have a sense of
fulfillment and passion in life, right?

To enjoy themselves.

And you don't get to be able to do that.

If all you care about are sort of skills
that learnable skills that are, you

know, from, um, uh, that, that, that,
that seems to satisfy the short term

satisfaction of maybe a job requirement,
but that doesn't bring you very far

because that job is going to change.

That job is going to
get evolved over time.

Those skills gonna be
outdated very quickly, right?

Many of those skills
are not durable skills.

They are ephemeral.

They are, they're hype.

Half lives are short these days,
especially when we encounter AI, right?

Like, like that's going to,
that's going to... AI is.

However, we, we look at it, you
know, we like it, we don't like it.

We, we, we, we think
of it as an assistant.

We think of it as a collaborator, et
cetera, et cetera, all the different

metaphors, but what, what is I think
pretty easily identifiable is that it is.

Extremely studious.

So things that has been published in
the world, things that it has his hands

on, it reads and it consumes everything.

So those kind of first level, I like
to think of it as almost like the

first level learning, which is just,
here's some, I hear some, here's

some content, read it, remember it.

And that's it, that AI is going to be
really good at doing, but what I thought

was really amazing with Tonya, when you
said, well, you need to make that your

own, you have to think through that.

That's where the critical
thinking comes in, right?

So this is where you process
that experience of, Hey!

I experienced some fact.

And if you can experience it even better
is even better than reading about it, then

the process of doing that, like dealing
with the experience seems to really

be the building block of the critical
thinking and, and, and the purpose and

all of that, that you would talk about.

I, I, I got so much out of your paper and
I wanted to then say, um, now I, I, and

I, I sometimes find that at LaGuardia.

Um, I'm always amazed by how
incredibly diverse your demographic is.

Um, you, and, and that might,
to me, it sometimes feel like

as people that work there, you
must have almost like no choice.

Even if you wanted to, but to embrace that
diversity, and then you can really use it.

And I actually do think that it
is a special, um, scenario where

actually there are a lot of colleges
don't have, and therefore they don't

truly understand what that means.

So maybe one of you can tell us a little
bit about like, what does it mean by like,

you know, dive in a diverse demographic.

Um, I, I remember, I will just use one
thing that I remember hearing about.

I think LaGuardia, there are something
like over 150 languages spoken

amongst your population, right?

That's incredible.

That, that's really swell.

Suddenly it puts you into a perspective
that says, Oh man, I don't even know.

How to name 150 languages.

Um, and, and that there are that many
just within the, you know, on campus.

And so why don't you tell us a
little bit about, you know, sort of

where LaGuardia is right now on the
demographic, just, you know, ballpark.

I'd like to say what's fantastic
about being in such a diverse

place is that you begin to
understand that you don't have to.

Understand diversity in order
to appreciate diversity.

So, of course, right?

I can't speak 150 languages,
but I can appreciate that my

students speak multiple languages.

And sometimes in the classroom is really
helpful for students that share the

same first language to have an in class
conversation, because in your second

languages, in your second language,
some things just don't come across.

And so just appreciating the
diversity is such a big thing.

And, you know, we talk
about our global society.

LaGuardia is like a microcosm
of a global society.

So every day our students are learning
and experiencing what it is to work with

people who may be with be like you or
who are not like you or what I think

is even more important that someone
that you think is different from you,

you'll see how they are similar to you.

So I, the diversity is
such a huge boon for us.

Right.

It makes our classrooms
really, really interesting.

And it's a, it's a boon for our students.

I love it.

And it's not all just about, you know,
like, you know, dominated by racial

diversity, it's everything else too.

Right.

I read that something like a third
of your students are not born,

were not born in the United States.

Right.

Like, that's really so interesting.

I wasn't born in the
United States by the way.

Um, and and, and I think that there
is so much, it's, it makes the

world so interesting when you see
different perspectives, it allows

you to question your own perspectives
because you see other people's, right?

I think it's interesting
that a third of this team.

Wasn't born in the United States.

That's pretty, that's
pretty, that's pretty astute.

So, so your, your faculty body also
reflect on this, over the students

too, which is another part of, you
know, being to be diverse like that.

It's, you know, I, I think
there's, there's this weird,

well, I, I, I think it's weird.

I think many of my, our audience
agree with us that is weird, but I

think that there is in the, in, in, in
much of the sort of mainstream media

today, that is, there has been a sort
of, you know, push back on diversity,

you know, like, Uh, big companies
closing up their DEI initiatives.

They are, um, you know, there are of
course, as educators, we know that in,

in a good number of States, DEI has been
attacked and, but I also sometimes find

that, you know, I think there's some...
sometimes, sometimes the, the programs

that are doing that weren't doing the
real DEI like weren't really, weren't

really understanding what it meant, like
the way that you had talked about, right?

You walked into a room with all these
people having different perspectives.

You have almost no choice
but to appreciate it.

And once you do, you see all of the
good things that comes out of it, right?

It wasn't just something where you go.

I'm trying to satisfy
some kind of quota, right?

That doesn't happen at LaGuardia.

But, but can I also say that one of the
losses I think of also not thinking about

is how do these perspectives enhance the
student's ability to be in the world?

So, you know, they are navigating
multiple languages in many times, multiple

experiences, and this is a superpower.

And I think that even though a lot of
our students don't necessarily have,

for example, that sort of traditional
education, which is about going abroad

and experiencing it, they're already made.

They already have those
skills ready to go.

And I think the question becomes, you
know, how do we harness them in a way?

That actually gets them out in the world
and really comes from those experiences,

even if though they're coming from
community college, they're not coming

from prestigious four year college.

And yet, in many ways, they're even
more prepared, I think, for the

world out there and to conquer it.

than many of the students that come
out from these Ivy League schools.

So, I want to emphasize that too, that
it's also about, you know, I mean, I

think that's one of our major, major, I
think, you know, resources, and powers

Yeah, it is, I think, I agree, yeah.

Go ahead.

I would, you know, I would also
like to add that that's how I see

our Liberal Arts program as well.

That Liberal Arts is a diverse field
in that it exposes students to many

different disciplines, academic
disciplines, and that's you know, an

academic diversity that we offer to
our students that they can experience

all these different ways of knowing the
world through science, through sociology,

anthropology, history, literature, and
how that also really prepares them to,

to be excellent professionals in whatever
field that they, um, they aspire to.

And, and this is why I believe in
the liberal arts, that really it

helps students to really appreciate
the breadth of human knowledge.

You know, I always say I want students
to be Order by the knowledge that

exists in the world and how they
can participate in even gaining

a little bit of that knowledge.

And we in the liberal arts do that
in ways that many other really

focused disciplinary pathways can't.

And I, I want, I want to, let's
talk about that for a little bit.

Um, I, I have, um,

you know, I, I feel like that for some odd
reasons, our society has recently been.

Well, in the recent years, probably,
you know, for, for, for, for, it's

been the trend now for a little
while, maybe even since arguably

the industrial age that, that, that
liberal arts is sort of, you know.

Like it's softer, you're not
going to get this, the, the,

the hard skills to get that job.

You can't be the lawyer or the
doctor, um, or the engineer

if you are doing liberal arts.

Um, but I think the people actually
forget that, um, almost all the

people that are the most probably
possibly many of the most powerful,

you know, organizations, companies.

Industry, they're actually run
by people that actually really

just have those critical thinking
skills and problem solving skills.

Oftentimes they are not practicing that
one, you know, special disciplines.

Um, and, and for people to, to actually
sort of, you know, look down on Liberal

Arts, I think it's really weird.

Um, I, not only do I think that
it's weird for that reason, we also

have had in our history, you know,
if we go back to the Renaissance.

Right?

Renaissance was about like, you know,
you know, people like Leonardo da

Vinci, who, who, who knows everything,
who's interested in it, who is

curious in the world, you know, who
wants to think about flying machines

as he's about paintings, um, right.

Who likes to value all these
things and make curiosity a

huge part of purpose in life.

And yet when it comes to sort of.

You know, sort of modern education, we
seem to have, when I say industrial,

the industrial age, it seems to be
almost like a very industrialized

factory like thinking in our, in our
mental mindset, which is, well, how do

we specialize in some things to make it
maybe more efficient to get you a little

further and deeper into that field.

Now, I, I think that that has.

In a weird way worked as
a narrative for a while.

Um, but, but in reality, it doesn't
actually really work when we map out

all the people that run our world.

And I'm not even talking about just,
you know, people who are CEOs of

big companies or whatever, right?

Because you don't just
major to be a CEO actually.

Um, um, but I'm also talking about,
you know, all the people that do

communication, marketing, journalism.

So you forget that there is this
whole swathe of people outside of

actually about half a dozen really
sort of prominent, like fields

that are, that, that have the name.

And I'm, by the way, not saying
that they're not good, like,

please, if you're passionate
about being adopted, do it right.

But actually our world is also run by
all these other people that do incredible

things that, that gives purpose.

Right?

And so somehow we sort of almost
put all the narrative around, you

know, a few fields that have a good
story, but then the rest of it, we've

sort of almost like ignored, um,
as if they, they weren't of value.

I think, I think what's
interesting is when.

And there have been many studies that
show this when an employer is asked,

what do you want from your employees?

They want them to read well.

They want them to write well.

They want them to speak well.

They want their employees to
have critical thinking skills.

That's the liberal arts.

That's the liberal art.

And if someone can do those things, well,
then they can add additional skills.

They do it better.

They go further, don't they?

Yes.

So when you think about your biology
students, if they do become, you know,

going into the medical path or they want
to go, you know, into the research area.

Really, the building block doesn't
come from just learning biology.

It comes from the Liberal Arts to make
them better thinkers, better learners,

and then they go further there.

And by the way, I also think that there's
one more thing too, that there's almost

like this, you just need some Liberal
Arts in order to do something else.

I think liberal arts itself can be a
pretty good end point to, um, you know,

there is nothing wrong about being like
a really good general critical thinker

who can think for yourself, who can
learn really well and go into the world.

And I would even argue, don't you
think that, and I know that this

sounds like science fiction, but to
me, you know, in the next few years,

as AI becomes better and better as.

You know, there's going to become
a point where some of our graduates

not from the Liberal Arts program,
actually Liberal Arts is the one

that's really hard to replace.

But, some of our graduates coming
from programs where it's heavy skill

base or is very like many layers of
skills, many, many, a lot of content,

the content heavy, you know, sort of
majors, actually a lot of that content.

AI is going to be really good at doing,
in fact, I would go as far as arguing

that it almost is going to be hard,
if not impossible for our graduates

to be as good as the AI would be at,
at, at just knowing that knowledge

and knowing that content, right?

So, so you're right.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I like to talk, but you're right in that.

What.

The encyclopedic knowledge, right,
that we used to call smart has been

completely taken over by computers.

However, critical thinking cannot
be taken over by computers.

And so I love that.

I love that.

I have a little theory on this, Tonya.

I want to see what you think about it.

I really think that the way that we do
this, you know, the critical thinking,

you know, from a, you know, if you think
about it from a cognitive neuroscience

standpoint is all of these nodes of,
you know, sort of experiences that

we have and we learn to process them.

When we process them, we create
links between these, you know, so

that's where the neural network
comes in, into our brains, right?

That's, that's, That's, that's, that's
really how, you know, our brains work

now that those pathways are very complex
and they overlap and they go from,

you know, really simple, instinctive
things to really difficult stuff.

Right.

And, and the way that we get
better at learning and critical

thinking is through that processing
of experience, which by the way.

Demetri, you talked about a
bunch of times reflection,

that's really what it is, right?

So we develop these ways to build
these neural networks and we, each

of us have our own stack of neural
networks built through our experiences.

There is currently no way.

At least not yet that a machine and reach
into our brain and build that for us.

Right.

What it can do is to give us a lot of
those nodes of like experiences and maybe

like give you like, Hey, an encounter of,
Hey, this is a recording of what happened.

This is something that
someone wrote Demetri, right.

Back in, you know, like, uh, uh,
over, uh, you know, like almost

2000, like over 2000 years ago.

Right.

But you still have to process it.

And it's that processor that
we're having our students build.

I really think that that's what
liberal arts does is that it,

it makes us better processors.

But I also think that it also, that's
the requirement for us to become

better pedagogues and teachers, right?

I mean, I see our role, not
necessarily only just sort of moving

forward with knowledge building,
but also asking the right questions.

for the students to make the connections,
and AI could never replace that.

And I think one of the things that
I want to sort of just track back,

um, Jeff, about what you were saying
before is that I think for so long, the

liberal arts has also been, I think,
the domain of the privileged, right?

Because when you're talking about what
What are our student incomes, right?

And they're looking for the job.

They're looking for that career or that
thing that will bring in the money,

and yet they're not looking beyond.

And I think one of the things that has
been so important, I think, both, um,

under sort of Gail Mello, our former
president, and under the leadership

of Dionne, too, who has really sort
of shaped the liberal arts department,

it really has been about access.

To those possibilities, which I
think is really, really important.

And that's, I think, one of the
things that I think makes LaGuardia

so great that we are not a work for
a workforce development institution,

but we are one where there are
multiple options and multiple paths

that could lead to many different
possibilities and the liberal arts.

And I think Pedagogy or a form of
teaching that actually is rooted in

reflection allows that to happen.

And that's really where social
mobility is possible, right?

So the idea that, you know,
you grew up in a home where you

don't have a lot of resources.

If you are continuously Thinking in those
terms and thinking that your only path

is to quickly get a job, right, that
can, that can, and you can skip over all

of the, the, you know, the, the other
pieces, it, it makes it possible for

you to just keep continuing that cycle
where you can get out of a certain level

of, you know, it's almost like that half
of the world is not accessible to you.

Right.

Whereas the other half who realize
that actually, no, that's where all the

thinking and enjoyment comes from, right.

They're doing that because you got,
you almost got to believe that, well,

that's not for me because how, how am
I going to get a job, you know, like

learning about thinking for myself,
I just need to be able to do this.

Skill that can like quickly, like
translate to a paycheck, except

that that's not even really true.

While, while it is possible to translate
that into a paycheck, so can, so can all

the things that you do in liberal arts.

It's maybe slightly less obvious,
but it's only slightly less obvious.

I think you can prove it quickly.

Here's a preview of what's coming up
next in part two of my conversation with

Tonya Hendrix, Demetri Karpathianakos.

And Dionne Miller from
LaGuardia Community College.

So, and I think it's taken
students beyond, this is the

liberal arts, this is what I'm
learning, to I am the liberal arts.

The liberal arts matters to me.

It's integral to who I am.