Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you'll hear
Part Two of my conversation with

Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas
Murray from University of Arizona.

Devon and Tom are Course Directors
for University 301, General

Education ePortfolio, University
101, Introduction to the General

Education Experience, respectively.

They are also both Associate
Professors of Practice at the W.

A.

Franke Honors College in Arizona.

in the Office of General Education.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found On Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

I'm A huge, huge fan of, um, the reform
that's centered around reflection.

I think that, you know, it is clearly,
to me, one of those things where

when we, when we earlier on talked
We're talking about the durable

skills, the transferable skills.

Reflection is probably the,
the linchpin that, that, that

puts all of this together.

Um, you know, and, and that, I think,
um, Tom, you were saying that for 12

years prior to this professionally
as students, they weren't ever asked

about what they are curious about.

I bet you they weren't being really asked.

Really on reflecting on anything of
their own experience either, right?

And, and, and it's just such a, it's
almost like one of those things that, um,

Most people in the world won't deny almost
naturally that yeah, it's a good part.

It's an important part of learning
yet We don't carve out time and space

in our curriculum in our day to day
To have students do this reflection

and I don't I don't even think that
is reflection Is that kind of like

some people think of it as well?

There's that to touchy feely thing
I'm gonna meditate and and it's not

even that it's you know, we're really
talking about we're talking about You

You layering your own experience, making
connections so that you can come up with

a strategy and how to solve a problem.

You know, these are things
that scientists do, artists do,

dancers do, you know, nurses do.

Um, you have to do it constantly,
every day, all the time.

Um, and so it's one of, it's
almost like, it feels almost like

one of those skills that we just
forgot that it was so important.

It's so important, but we forgot about it.

Um, and I think that.

Um, what you are all doing, bringing
that to be such a focus, is incredibly

important work, um, in, in your reform.

I mean, if you want to be
excellent in your field, reflection

is how you do that, right?

I mean, when I was in high
school and I played football,

what did we do every Monday?

We watched a videotape on VHS, uh,
videotape of our football game for

that weekend, right, and, and our
coaches made us look at the, at the,

okay, what, what did you do well?

What did you do poorly?

What do you need to do
better next time, right?

That is how you get better
at playing football.

That's how you get better at teaching.

Anything.

If you want to be a great engineer, you
need to reflect on the engineering that

you've done and how you make it better.

And I think, I think what, what people
forget about is that reflection.

Yes.

Is there something about being human
that makes reflection somewhat natural?

Perhaps, but it's a skill, right?

It's like any other skill.

The more you do it, the more
intentional you are, the more

practice you have, the better you get.

Um, and if you want to be the
best of the best, that's how

you're going to get there.

And that allows our brains then,
right, to recall experiences

and apply them in new contexts.

And that's ultimately What we're hoping
students can do with what they've learned

and spent many years dedicating time
and energy in the classroom to having

these spaces where they can practice
these different skills and apply them

to course specific or case scenarios.

And then when they're out in their fields
and industries, they're able to better

make those connections and to build
in that time and intentionality around

purposeful reflection and to facilitate
is really part of the learning process and

ultimately what students should be able
to take with them so that they can say,

Oh yeah, I actually got something out of
my degree because now I can see how I've

applied some of the things I've learned.

Um, sometimes I think it's easy to
assume that like when we ask students,

right, like what are you curious about?

And to carve out that
time to sit with them.

One feels almost indulgent,
right, in a world where there's

so many taps on our time.

Um, and instead, like, that, that
shouldn't be an indulgent activity.

That, that requires work.

And sometimes, sometimes it uncovers
things about ourselves that maybe

we We don't necessarily want
to deal with quite yet, right?

Or sometimes through that process,
students come to realize, wow,

I've, maybe I'm picking a degree
path that is not right for me.

And what do I, how do I grapple with that?

Right?

Um, those are tough questions.

Um, and that's, as you mentioned,
hard work, uh, to, to work through.

Um, but it's, it shouldn't be indulgent.

It shouldn't, that time shouldn't
be reserved for the few.

Uh, Like in their like small Liberal Arts
on the grassy knoll, you know, whatever

this like time of whatever we thought
college was supposed to be like, but

it actually should be embedded and time
preserved in the curriculum because it is

an essential part of the learning process.

Yeah.

I, I love that because I think, I
think that, um, it's, I mean, you were

saying, That, you know, maybe humans
that naturally have that reflection,

but, but if, but then why are we not
making that something that we value?

Like from, from, from day one,
why aren't we saying, well, yeah,

we are naturally good at this.

Let's harness this.

Um, so we don't do that, um, very well
in, in, in the past and the past has been.

Actually, you're going to figure
that out because you're going

to be naturally good at that.

We are here to transfer a ton of
content to your brain and hopefully

you'll, you'll make sense of it all
through your own reflection, right?

It's, it's, it's kind of, it
feels a lot like, um, Tom, you're

using a sports analogy earlier.

I feel, I feel like it feels a lot like
when sports science wasn't very advanced.

We just go, well, just go run
a ton and then you'll be fast.

And then later on, we
realized, hold on a minute.

It turns out there's nutrition,
there's sleep, there's, there's

strength, there's agility.

There's a lot more nuance that
we should be thinking about.

Right.

And so, yes, you still have
to run, you know, to get fast.

You can't, you can't ignore that,
but, but, but there is a lot of other.

Things that we do and we can do it smart.

You know, Jeff, I, I love running.

You actually hit a passion of mine.

And I think it's a great example because
maybe humans find reflection naturally.

Humans are also built to run, right?

Like if you look at, at the history
of humanity, humans are actually

elite long distance runners.

evolutionarily, right?

Like, but you have to practice it, right?

You do, if you don't use that skill,
you, it doesn't, you, you lose it.

Um, and so are we built to reflect?

I think we are, but you still have to
do it intentionally and thoughtfully

and strategically and, and in a
sustained way, um, to make it valuable.

Well, you can almost
train yourself out of it.

If you, if we don't put value on it,
that's a danger to, to humanity, right?

I feel like there's a certain aspect of,
you know, when we don't train ourselves to

become reflective thinkers, that's when we
become, Easily manipulated, manipulated.

Right?

Others easily being able to not being
able to tell, you know, um, truth from,

you know, things that are not true.

Um, because we're not exercising
that part of the brain.

Um, and that's, that's a.

That's a dangerous path to go down.

Um, and if we only count on people to
just do it naturally, they'll still

do some of it, but especially if
we keep telling people that doesn't

matter, you just need to learn this,
then they go, well, hold on a minute.

Turns out, even though I'm naturally
good at it, I'm not going to, I'm going

to do, not going to do anything with it.

That's, you know, that's, that's
a, that's a serious problem.

Now I know that.

At University of Arizona, as part of
what you've done, um, in this reform,

and actually, Devon, in your course,
it's called University, University 301,

and it's about, um, building portfolios.

I have, I've been so lucky to
have been involved with you

all to do your portfolio work.

You know, we just took a small part of
it because you, you use, you know, the

platform to do the work that you do.

Um, but, but the big part of what I've
been really, um, always been so, um,

enamored by is your, um, dedication
to making a learning portfolio.

Um, can you Maybe talk about why portfolio
and what is a learning portfolio versus

any type, other types of portfolio.

Um, and, and maybe, you know, so that
people can get a little bit of that,

little bit of a color of like, well,
what does it mean when they have gone

through Uh, UNF 101 and then they
took some articles and come to my

301 class and they do this portfolio.

Why?

And what does that look like?

What does it actually
look like for a student?

Are they just basically writing
a lot more paper or are they

not writing a lot more paper?

What is this?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Thanks, Jeff.

Um, what I think is particularly
exciting and when I think about what

Uh, makes a learning portfolio stand
apart from, um, what we consider

maybe more external facing or showcase
portfolios, career portfolios.

There's many different kinds of portfolios
and they all serve different purposes.

Um, and I had a colleague once kind
of framed this well for me, um, as

the primary audience member of a
learning portfolio is the student.

And that resonates with us and so
much of what we're trying to do is

that the primary audience and the
main stakeholder in students learning

and their degree is the student.

So they, that is where the
effort and the work is.

And really the learning happens is that
when a, when a student gets a chance to

say this is actually what I've learned,
this is what's mattered to me, and this

is what it's going to mean for me moving
forward, and really almost in dialogue

with themselves, right, their past self,
uh, and their learning, that That's it.

It's quite a profound responsibility
and then gives us a sense of, okay,

now I can actually talk about and see
the connections that maybe I didn't see

before, um, in my undergraduate career.

So, um, I think that's, and
that was a mindset shift.

Two, for me, professionally, right?

And it's something we still, like, when
Tom and I meet with folks around campus

and we, we have our little, you know,
song and dance we do about the classes.

That's a big, like, myth we have to
debunk is what this portfolio is.

And that, um, There's value when, in
particular for some fields and industries

and for some degree programs, right,
um, having an external portfolio is

a requirement and an expectation for,
for their industry or their career,

and that's not to say that, like, you
can't have more than one, right, or you

wouldn't have more than one portfolio as
a part of your undergraduate experience.

That would be, you know, if we were
to think about, we would never tell a

student, to have only one version of
their resume or to complete one final exam

for their entire undergraduate degree.

Like, that would just serve no
purpose and it has no applicability.

Um, but rather with the, uh.

The Learning ePortfolio.

It's responsive to, again, the call that
we are responding to with students that

I don't know, I want to be able to say
I know what I learned and what value it

has to offer for my General Education.

And that's what they're prompted to do
as a part of this portfolio experience.

And sometimes the What they decide
to include, um, may not be the things

that their General Education instructor
like per, you know, necessarily set out

for them as a part of the assignment.

Sometimes the learning that they
uncover through the reflective

process is not necessarily what
the assignment was designed to do.

Um, and I think that that is, an important
and profound insight when you Realize

something from a learning experience
that maybe you didn't expect to find um

is one of I think the the key pieces of
a learning portfolio that You wouldn't

necessarily put out into the world,
especially if it was something like wow,

I learned that My team really struggled,
uh, because of our time management, right?

Like, I wouldn't put that on my LinkedIn,
uh, necessarily, you know, but that

would be important for me to understand
and then to be able to say, next time

I work on a team, I know I got to bring
these skills to, to that team project.

So maybe that was a long answer, but it's
an exciting opportunity for students,

um, to really get to say, this is what I
learned and this is what matters to me.

And here's how I'm going to
apply that learning in my future.

And I think part of that, um, that Devon
was alluding to is this idea of like

using a learning ePortfolio as a space
where you can also showcase failure.

And when we're talking about students who
are so often so failure averse, Right?

Like, not ever wanting to, um,
kind of put under a microscope the

things that they haven't done well.

Having this space where they can say,
wow, I went back and here's a paper I

wrote two years ago in my first year.

And actually, this is not a very
good example of critical thinking,

but this is what I've learned since
then through these other experiences.

Like, that is, So powerful for students to
be able to more intentionally think about,

um, the things that they maybe haven't
done as well as they wanted to, because

that's also a part of learning, right?

Is, is being able to,
to learn from failure.

I mean, going back to your football game
analogy, unless you won every single

one of those games, there will be some
failures, and that's where you're going

to have to learn and figure out how to do.

You know, better next time.

And I, one of the, one of the things
that I, um, that was, that is, that is

really, um, part of the inception of
Digication as a platform, you know, for

portfolios, it's called make learning
visible, but I love people don't realize

that when we say make learning visible.

Is to make learning visible
first and foremost to yourself.

Um, because that is what powers the
rest of, you know, how do you grow

from that to, you know, potentially,
like you said, making it visible for

a potential employer or what have you,
and you can edit and you can, you can

curate and you can do, do a version
of it that you make visible for them.

That's appropriate.

That's just being able
to understand audience.

You know, that's, that's, that's a,
that's a, that's a simple thing to do.

Um, But the idea that we get to
just see it for ourselves, it almost

feels like you should be able to
do it, except that we don't, right?

So if Tom, I'm going to go back
to your football game, chess tape.

If no one taped it, right?

If no one taped it and no one
on Monday said, let's sit and

watch how we got our butt kicked.

I was using the case.

Right.

But if no one forced you to do it, no
one taped it, no one bothered with it,

because we didn't care that much, right?

Then on Monday, you would, you
have missed one of the most

valuable ways to grow, right?

You would have just go,
well, we got our butt kicked.

I'm not sure why.

Everyone just go run another 10 laps.

I'm going to push back
on that a little bit.

I think, because there's two things
that you mentioned that are important

for the reflection to happen.

One is that somebody videotaped
it, and two is that somebody said,

let's watch, let's think about
this and think about what happened.

I think the videotape is helpful, but
it's not a necessary condition, right?

The necessary condition is that
you make time for it, right?

That somebody says, sit down and
think about it, because a lot of

reflection happens without an artifact.

I mean, our ePortfolios
have artifacts, right?

But, you know, If you develop the habits
and skills of reflection, you can do that

without necessarily having an artifact,
but just thinking about your experience.

So, I mean, I do a lot of, I do a lot of
running and when I, after I run a race,

I mean, I'm not racing competitively,
believe me, but after I run a race, I

don't have a videotape of that race,
but I can still think about like,

okay, how did I manage my nutrition?

What was my mental state?

How did training go leading up to that?

Um, I don't necessarily
have to have an artifact.

in order for reflection to happen.

Um, the, the necessary condition
is that you make time for it.

Yes, it's make the time and the end and
being deliberate about like, Hey, you

know, I'm going to actually think, think
about something that would have been

painful in particular sometimes, right?

Like it didn't go well, what happened?

Like I have to realize that.

Yeah.

And I think that's what.

distinguishes a learning portfolio from,
say, a cloud storage device, right, or a

Google Drive, right, um, is that students
are oftentimes prompted or, you know,

sometimes are incentivized on their own
to maybe save their work or they have

whatever versions of their past, you know,
English papers, um, but in life, right,

as, as competing priorities happen, we,
we document, we submit the work, and

then we move on to the next task, right?

And, um, that is often what is also
incentivized, right, in higher education.

Submit the work, I evaluate it,
I determine that you learned the

things I was looking for you to do.

And, What actually makes it a learning,
the visibility part, right, the learning

eat portfolio, is that now I actually
have to go back and think about this

paper, maybe revisit it again, think
about maybe what were the conditions I

was writing this paper in, right, um, and
actually maybe the things I got out of

it, and And to reflect in that capacity
that that is something that you wouldn't

necessarily be prompted to engage with
if you're just here I am with my drive

and my cloud device and moving on.

Right.

It's kind of like a one, two punch.

You, you can have the experience,
but if you don't get to process

that experience afterwards, it
just sits alone as an experience.

And it, it did something, but it didn't
do its full potential, like to, to really,

you didn't really get most out of it.

You, you got, you got, you get the
first half, you know, you got the

experience, but that experience did not
mean as much as if you had been able to

actually take the time to process it.

And to make meaning out of it and to
make connections in this experiences

comparing to other experiences
that you also have and layer them.

Um, how do you think, let me
ask you a little bit about

now that you've done this for,

look, you and, and like you said, your
colleagues have done this for many

years, but now it's really brought
to the forefront, to a massive scale

to thousands of students per year.

Can we ask, can we talk a little bit
about, so what's the outcome of this?

Like what, what are
students getting out of it?

You know, and have you
seen evidence of it?

You know, like, uh, I think it must be so
cool, Devon, for you to teach the, the,

the, the, you know, the bookend, the, the,
the other end of the bookend class where

you go, well, these students coming out
of, um, you know, courses directed by, by

Tom, um, do they come out You know, coming
to your class, being more reflective

and, and how so does it, does it show?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think what's been, um, one of the most,
I don't know, unexpected benefits, right?

Particularly with teaching 301.

Um, one of, one of the first kind of
reflection questions students are asked

in the first week of the class is, um,
what's been kind of the most meaningful

General Education class you've taken
to date and why, like, why is that?

Why was it meaningful?

What did you get out of it?

And overwhelmingly, you know, there's
many answers to that question.

Students can choose whatever class
they want, but the seems to be the

most popular answer is it was my Intro
to Gen Ed class, my UNIV 101 class.

And usually the answer is I didn't
see the value at the time, right?

I didn't see the purpose.

I, and actually now I understand, right?

I learned.

Like how to learn, right?

I learned the value of reflection.

You know, they point to all these
different things that they got out of

the class that at the time they might
not have seen or really cared much

about because it's their first semester.

It's, there's so many things happening
in your life when you're starting a

new program, you know, and um, That's
a, that's a pretty profound insight,

um, and I think quite powerful that
we, we don't see otherwise oftentimes

as, as faculty and instructors
when we teach a one off class.

Um, we see, see the students, we, we
interact with them for a certain period of

time and then we hope that what, you know,
the messages that we hope to relay, uh, go

with them and the show up somewhere else.

Um, but it's not often we
actually get to see that.

Learning actualized, um, in, in real time
or some time afterwards and I think that

that's one of the most exciting things
that I find, um, is that students, um, see

the value and they just might not actually
see it in the moment, um, they're starting

to recognize it later and so that's not
to say every student, right, comes to

that realization or and even sometimes
they point about, About the zombies class

or what, you know, pyramids and mummies.

And they're, they can talk
about, oh, like, this is why

I got this out of this class.

And again, as faculty members, I don't
teach that class, but now I can tell,

you know, that faculty member, students
are talking about your class and

here's what they're learning about it.

And if it's through their reflections
or it's in their e portfolio, that

opportunity to engage with that work.

Um, I think is something that is
often missing, um, it's quite a

missed opportunity and something
that we're really excited to kind

of weave, um, for students in
their undergraduate experience.

And you know, by how we defined
it earlier, that these things are

durable and, you know, transferable.

I bet you that if you were to ask
that same thing again, you know,

10 years down the road, I know
it's hard to have these things.

I wish that we can just
like do that, right?

But if you were able to ask like
10, 20 years down the road, it would

have been, um, even more pronounced.

It would be more pronounced that
the student go, I went to college

because I learned how to think.

And I forgot at all together what
some of the content that I did, you

know, but I learned how to think
and learn how to solve problems.

I learned how to reflect,
I learned how to use these.

And I think that's, you know,
probably the even bigger and better

proof that it's hard for us to do.

Um, but you know, I, I bet you that
that's the case, Tom, you must be

pretty proud when people say, Hey.

Univ Univ 101.

That was, uh, that was it.

That was my, that was the moment.

Do you know, it, sure.

Yeah.

I mean, it, it makes me proud.

I think there's, there's one anecdote
in particular that I think I always

go back to and it, and it speaks
to your question about are students

better at reflecting and it had,
it was the, it was the first year.

that we were launching the new program.

Now, only new students are going to be
in this new program, so we still have

to teach out our existing students in
the old General Education curriculum.

And we had a Gen Ed instructor teaching
one of our Exploring Perspective classes,

reach out to our instructional support
team, and say, Wow, I have all of these

students in the new Gen Ed program.

They're so prepared to do
the reflection in my class.

Do you have any strategies I can
give to the students in the old Gen

Ed program to help them catch up?

Because they're not, they're not
reflecting at the same level as the

students who have gone through this
class that has actually systematically.

Engage them in the habits
and skills of reflection.

And I think that, that piece of
evidence, right, anecdotal as it

is, is something that I, I point
to because it's, it's very clear.

Students might not see it in the moment,
they might not see the value of it in

the moment, but just the act of doing
it every week for an entire semester,

right, it's, It's like if you go for
a long walk every day, you might not

notice that you're getting stronger,
but like, you're getting stronger.

Um, and, and we, and we do see it,
um, in their work, which is, I think,

really, that's, that's the exciting part
for me, is that we can see the actual

growth in And how they're thinking.

And I've heard similar sentiments
from other people and actually there's

even one additional piece, which is,
but as far as the content, you know,

sometimes that's completely gone.

Even by the second semester, like
students don't even remember what they

read about or what that was all about.

But it didn't matter because
that wasn't the point, right?

The point of it was, no, we want you to,
we want you to exercise that part of your

brain muscle, which is how do you reflect?

How do you solve problem based on
these, you know, like, how do you come

up with big, bigger, newer questions?

How do you come up with
visions of the world?

And these is the, these are the reflection
becomes the basic building block.

How you answer all of these things.

Can I tell my C story, Devon?

Yeah.

Okay.

This is my favorite thing.

I, I, I had to take a computer programming
class as an undergraduate, Jeff.

I hated it.

Absolutely hated it.

I have had no intention of
being a computer programmer.

This is 25 plus years ago, right?

That's a long time ago.

I had to learn C

Never used it since.

Two years ago when I wrote about this
story, I had a like, Google C I'm like, I

don't, is this even the language anymore?

I don't even know if
people still use this.

It is.

I've never used it.

But I will tell you, when I sit down to
an Excel spreadsheet, and I write like,

super complicated formulas, and people
are like, how did you learn to do that?

I've never taken a class in Excel.

I took a class in C 25 years ago.

It taught me how to
think like a programmer.

It taught me about computer syntax, about,
about computer language, about thinking

about punctuation, and, and that, and
so now I can write really complicated

formulas in Excel, not because I took an
Excel class, but because I learned it.

how to think like a computer
programmer 25 years ago.

Um, and that to me is the power
of General Education, right?

Like you, you learn this way of
thinking, the content doesn't matter.

In, in most fields, if they're doing
their job, the content's going to be

irrelevant in 15, 20 years, right?

But it's the way of thinking, right?

Like I learned to think in this
way and that, that thinking is.

Where all the value is.

It's, it's so crystallized in sort
of where you stand in this, in

this, in the, in the pedagogy, and
that you are so willing to put all

that into practice and in scale.

So it's not, I mean, I think I've
seen in a lot of institutions, they're

like, well, we experiment with this
one little group, um, and it does well.

But then there's always a but, but
probably because of that smaller group

of people because they were in this
college and they naturally do better.

Um, you know, there's always some
excuse and why it wasn't going to work.

And for University of Arizona to,
um, take on this Kind of endeavor,

you know, this reform at this scale
at this level and doing it so, so

progressively to be able to just go,
we're going to really, you know, make

this part of part of this and you're
able to see the results, um, like this.

I am just so.

Um, in all, and I, I feel like
there are a lot of institutions who,

hopefully, if any of them are listening,
they're, they're probably thinking

about, well, we are going through our
own reform, our own sort of refresh.

Uh, we also have our Gen Ed program for
25 years and we hadn't done anything,

and we've been talking about it.

Um, I hope that they can see what you
all have done and, and, um, you And, and

store that as a, as a, as a source for, of
hope that that could happen for them too.

And I really think that it's, um, you
know, I, I just came back from a, well,

I didn't just come, I came back, you
know, I went to a Gen Ed conference in,

in October and I feel like there were,
you know, Folks that are on the other

side of before the reform or during the
reform, you know, or the trying to get

a reform going, um, sometimes they feel
like this is never going to happen because

Faculty Senate wasn't going to let us
or, um, actually you mentioned earlier

Board of Regents, um, you know, in some of
those, and then you Some programs in some

states where certain things are banned
and they are having to do these kinds of

reforms with hands tied and, and, and in
very restrictive, um, you know, manners.

It makes life very, very difficult.

Um, but I, I think that what you have done
here serves as an amazing example of what.

Can happen, um, if you prioritize it.

Yeah, I, you know, I'll add that I think
maintaining the focus on what's in the

interest and response to students, right?

The institutional support then
makes it actualized, right?

Um, and that also the work that
we're doing in 101 and 301, having

a common first year seminar focused
on General Education, building.

A General Education e portfolio.

Like these don't exist in a vacuum.

We, we operate on a campus that has
tremendous like high impact practices

and meaningful learning experiences
for many different students.

Um, and I think that recognizing that
that work is also, like, this isn't the

only ePortfolio a student creates, right?

They're creating ePortfolios
in other Gen Ed classes, right?

And to recognize that experience and to
see that as, well, this is a tremendous

opportunity because now students are,
you know, Getting practice with this

way of thinking and engaging in their
learning so that it isn't the first

time that they're doing something
because we know that then that kind of

practice makes it more easier to recall.

It makes then the depth of their
work uh, more robust, right?

And, um, I think that also then makes it
feel Everyone has a seat at the table.

Everyone's work can be valued and
that students can engage in multiple

experiences that are meaningful.

And we know contribute to ultimately
their learning and their success here.

And I think that that then
makes it feel like there's more

opportunities to collaborate.

To get buy in and to make
the work more sustainable.

Um, so, you know, I think that that's
an opportunity to look for as well.

Um, because one, one solution
isn't going to work for everybody.

There's many different possibilities,
um, and, and good work that's happening.

It's just, how do you recognize
that work and, and amplify it so

more students can get connected?

I, I want to, can I plug
something for you, uh, Devon?

Sure.

I know that you, I know that you and, um,
a number of your colleagues had, um, uh,

published a, an article, um, in, um, at
the International Journal of e-portfolio.

Uh, article is named Connecting the
Dots, utilizing Learning Portfolio in a

large scale General Education curriculum.

And I, um, I.

I find it to be an incredible article.

Um, one of the things that I, uh, really
love is, is that you said learning

portfolio can act as a constellation,
the work of connecting the dots.

And I just think that's so beautiful
because stars themselves, you know,

each individual star means something.

It's, it's cool, but it's the
constellation that makes meaning.

And, and I, I just love that.

I think that's such a beautiful
and poetic, um, illustration

of the work that you're doing.

Congratulations.

Yes.

Yeah.

It was exciting to realize and, um,
document for, even for ourselves, right.

Uh, and being able to share that
work and the, Tremendous effort

of many of our colleagues on this
campus and, and where we're headed.

So thanks.

Well, you're practicing what you preach.

You're making your own work visible
first to yourself, but now to the world.

Um, I think that's, that's lovely.

Um, well, Hey, listen, I am a
such a big fan of both of you.

And I hope you all continue this
amazing work at University of Arizona.

I hope that we get to touch base
again, maybe in a few years, we're

going to be like, Hey, now we've grown
in these other directions as well.

And maybe we can have that, like,
Hey, we actually did go and talk

to some students after the graduate
and they say, University of 101

It was still the bomb, right?

All right.

Thank you both again for joining us today.

Um, for listeners, if you, uh, want
to learn more about, um, uh, Devon

and Thomas's work, um, I will, um,
be, um, posting some links to, you

know, their, their, you know, the
gender, gender education program.

I'll post links to that, uh, article
that I, I just talked about and, uh, any

other links if you guys want to share,
we'll, we'll include those as well.

Uh, but, uh, thank you again so much
for being, um, I really appreciate,

uh, being a leader in this and,
and doing such meaningful things.

Especially at this kind of scale,
it takes, it takes real courage and,

and, and, uh, and effort and, uh,
and, uh, and the hard work you put in

there, you know, is really showing.

And I think that, um, you
know, literally, yeah.

Many, many tens of thousands of
students are going to benefit from

this and this is really, you know,
one of the most exciting things that

I, I see in, in, in higher education.

So, um, really appreciate
everything that you've done.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for having us.

Okay.

Take care.

Coming up next, we'll be chatting
with Whitney Fountain Ruiz, a recent

graduate of Arizona State University.

Here's a quick preview.

I did try to get him but I wanted
him to understand it is okay.

You make mistakes, but if you make a
mistake, you can also ask questions

until you, um, get help or find
the answer that you're looking for.