Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear
Part One of my conversation with

Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas
Murray from University of Arizona.

Devon and Tom are course directors
for University 301, General

Education Portfolio, and University
101 Introduction to General

Education Experience, respectively.

They are both also Associate
Professors of Practice at the W.

A.

Franke Honors College in the
Office of General Education.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

My guests today are Devon Thomas
Jones, course director of University

301, General Education Portfolio,
and Thomas Murray, course director

of University 101, Introduction to
the General Education Experience.

They are both Associate
Professors of Practice at W.

A.

Franke Honors College and the
Office of General Education

at University of Arizona.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Thanks.

We usually do one on one
conversations, but I've always

known the both of you as a pair.

Um, I feel like we've always
talked to both of you.

Um, and so, um, I thought it would,
it would be just, uh, uh, be useful

to, to, to have both of you on
Digication Scholars Conversation.

Um, Now, you both direct, um, two
different, um, courses in the same sort of

Gen Ed program in University of Arizona.

Maybe for folks who are joining us who are
not even aware of what does all this mean?

What is Gen Ed, University 101, 301?

These are all lingos that sometimes,
you know, even folks that are in

higher education get confused.

Could you, like, tell us a little
bit about what these, what these

courses are and what, what you do?

Sure.

Um, I think it's actually, it's
interesting that you say a lot of

people might not understand all this is.

That's actually the purpose in
some ways of both of our courses.

Um, it is to help students understand
and make meaning of their General

Education coursework, um, which
provides, uh, really broad and rich

foundation for, you know, whatever
major or majors they might be pursuing.

So, our courses are actually designed
to address that very issue at this

institution so that students know,
you know, why are we doing this?

Like, what is the value of
doing General Education?

How can I make it meaningful for myself?

How can I Describe to myself
and others what it is that I've

learned so that they're getting the
most benefit out of that General

Education program that they can.

Um, and it is, it's,
it's two bookends, right?

Which is why Devon and I often appear
simultaneously in the same spaces

because we're, we're, our courses
are two sides of the same coin.

And, um, could you tell, like, let's
step back even one step further.

It's not one step.

You know, further from, from, from
that for people who don't know

what General Education is, right?

So we, you talked about, well, what's
the value of General Education?

Let me give people some examples
of what, what is General Education?

You know, if you've, if you, you
are not in college yet, you are

thinking about attending college and
you hear about General Education,

but you don't know what that is.

How does one even start
to understand that?

Sure.

I love talking about this.

That's why Devon waited.

She knows, she knows that
I love talking about this.

Um, so General Education is about
developing the whole person.

It's about developing ways of thinking
and ways of knowing that are not

just about Vocational trading, right?

Um, you know, students go to college,
they want to get a really great career,

really great job out of it as they should.

Part of what supports that great career is
the capacity to think outside of kind of

the narrow focus of what that career is.

So, At the University of Arizona,
for example, we have four learning

outcomes for our General Education
program, which are, um, Communicating

Effectively, Thinking Critically,
Using Information Effectively

and Ethically, and Understanding
and Valuing Differences, right?

So these, these learning outcomes
describe skills that transcend

Any particular field, right?

No matter what field you're going
into, your employer is going

to value your capacity to think
critically and problem solve.

They're going to value your ability
to communicate effectively in

writing, um, and speaking across
contexts, across audiences.

And General Education courses
help develop that capacity.

And the great thing is then you can,
you can take these courses that have Any

number of topics to them, um, because in
some ways the topics don't even matter.

It's the, it's the ways of thinking
and doing that they're helping you

develop, um, that really matters.

So we, we have General Education
courses at the U of A on zombies.

Uh, we have, um, some that are
on like video games and video

games in societies, right?

And so these really broad topics,
it doesn't really matter that

you're studying zombies, right?

What, What you're really learning about
is how, through literature, humans

have created the idea of monsters
and that way of thinking and, um,

understanding how humans, um, create
differences between them, um, and

all sorts of ways of thinking that 20
years from now, you're going to forget

what you learned about zombies, right?

But the way of thinking stays with you.

And that's a, that's a really
huge value of General Education.

I love that sense of these skills
are durable and transferable

over a long period of time.

And that, um, it's not specific to
disciplines and content that Actually,

I, I think that I, you know, I've been
talking, you know, I, I have kids that

are sort of close to college age and
you know, I talk to them and their

friends and I feel like sometimes
there's this sort of notion that, you

know, when I go to college, I want to
get a job at this, whatever, you know,

like give it a label, whatever that is.

And sometimes I think that there's
this tension between that and

actually you also going there to
learn to become a better learner.

And that, that may be even more
important because that one skill that

you're mentioning now, um, that's
going to change in the next five, 10

years, 15, 20 years for sure, right?

And that, and that your, your foundational
skills to be able to learn is so much

more important because as those things
change, um, those durable skills that

you were talking about, like, you
know, communicating effectively, quick

to thinking critically, um, Being
able to take information and what was

it, um, um, ethically and, uh, uh.

Effectively and ethically.

Effectively and ethically, um,
and I forgot the last one, um.

Understanding and valuing difference.

Understanding, yeah.

And, and these are all things that, um,
they're like evergreen topics, right?

There are things that will apply to us
Not only for any specific content area,

but also just in life, in leadership,
in relationships with people, um,

and finding meaning in general.

And so I, I, I think that there, you
know, I think that there's, there is,

there is this weird tension of students
today thinking about going to college,

attending college, and there's this
idea that like, oh, I attend college.

What is your major?

You know, what am I going to get a job at?

Of course, there's the tension
of also student loans and so on.

So you want to be able
to pay it back, right?

You want to be able to afford it.

But, you know, They think about, you
know, sort of that very practical

tension of, okay, if I'm going to
be a nurse, why do I have to learn

how to do all these other things?

And the idea is, you know, and,
and that's really what you guys do.

You're like, hold on a minute.

Actually, whether you want to be
a nurse or an engineer or a lawyer

or a doctor, these are all things
that's going to apply to you.

Right, right.

Well, and, and, um, A strong
General Education foundation

cuts across industry, right?

And so to think about your General
Education, um, typically, right, in U.

S.

uh, colleges and universities,
this is a large component of your

degree requirement, um, anywhere
from maybe a quarter to a third

of the number of credits that
you need to complete your degree.

And we also know, right, that with an
ever changing, like, job market and

industry and the way that things are
changing and we're preparing folks to

graduate into careers that don't exist.

Um, it also then makes your degree
more valuable because it makes it more

transferable to different industries.

So when you are studying to be a creative
writer, the kinds of skill sets you

need Working for a law firm is going
to maybe look a lot different than if

you're working in a marketing or ad
agency, but being able to effectively

work on a team or delegate, like, those
are things that are required in either

of those industries, and those are the
kinds of skills and mindsets that you get

to practice and get a lot of experience
in through your General Education.

So, yes, I think sometimes, um,
it can feel like with the cost of

college and with the time to degree
that the urgency around, well, I want

to get these things out of the way.

I want to complete my gen eds as fast as
possible because I want to get to the, the

good stuff when I'm here to study, right?

Um, but rather if we can reframe
it as, this is part of the value

that you get to take with you.

regardless of where you end up with your
degree that, that adds a layer, um, of

transferability and applicability that may
not exist if you end up taking, you know,

getting a degree in something and not
actually then ending up in that industry.

No, I love that.

And I, I, I have a, I have a Something
that I want to check with you on,

and this is something that I, I.

I feel like that I've heard a lot of
people say, and I can hypothesize,

but I don't know whether you know
people, you know, I mean, you are, you

are the pros here, you know, so you
might, you have more to say about this.

I really feel like that for people
who have gained these skills, right?

Like you said, top, the subject matter
itself wasn't even the point of it.

You could be studying zombies, um, but.

Once you've gained these, you know,
sort of foundational skills, you know,

to thinking, to be, to be someone
who can, you know, who can think

critically, et cetera, it actually
makes you more effective a learner,

whatever field you go into anyway.

So if we were to think about like
your, roughly speaking, a four year

undergraduate education, I know
people, you know, can fluctuate, you

know, those four years are not exact.

Um, That you spend some of some portion
of the time developing these skills.

You'll spend some other times
developing skills in specific,

you know, more narrow disciplines.

But the times that you actually, once
you have these skills, when you go

into the disciplines, you're going
to be a much more effective learner.

I believe that the net result is actually
that you are better at everything.

Like the net benefit after four years,
let's say, is Better than if you had

spent four years, day one, go to nursing
101 and you'd skipped all of this.

You would be a good nurse, but you would
be a better nurse if you actually spent

some of that time, even half of that time
in General Education, and then only spend

half the time in nursing because during
the half, half the time being in nursing,

you're actually doing more like you're
being more effective as a, as a learner.

What do you think about that hypothesis?

I completely agree with that
because because nursing doesn't

happen in a vacuum, right?

Engineering doesn't happen in a vacuum.

You engineer for people.

You engineer for communities.

You engineer for cities, right?

You engineer in a, in a complex system.

You nurse in a complex system.

You teach in a complex system.

And so you need to understand
and be able to interact with that

system, um, in, in complex ways.

Because if all you, if all you know
are the technicalities of nursing,

That's a very limited understanding
of what it means to be a nurse.

And the skills that you gain
outside of your industry make

you that more complex thinker.

And I think Jeff, you, you mentioned
earlier, it's not just about your career.

It's about your personal life.

It's about your relationships, right?

These, these skills that you
develop in General Education go

way beyond the career, right?

It, It changes, you know, if you are
an effective communicator, and in 15

years you decide that you want to be a
volunteer coach for your kid's sports

team, that effective communication
is going to benefit you as a coach

on your kid's sports team, right?

Um, so there's so much value to it
other than, you know, You know, how

it's going to impact your career.

Right.

And I mean, Thanksgiving is coming
up, um, you know, at that Thanksgiving

dinner table, if you want to effectively
communicate with your, with your, your

family, um, that's, uh, then this will
be a skill that, that, uh, you can come

back from, you know, college to use that.

Um, I, I want to, I want to pick
up on that, um, Tom, a little

bit, maybe go a little bit in the,
uh, Tangential sort of direction.

I think I agree with you.

A lot of these skills are, you know,
applicable in so many ways, right?

I think that there is something that
when I see your program and I see your

students work and, and some of the
things that we've talked about, it's

also about getting students to have a
sense of mission and purpose, a sense

of 'What am I doing in this world?'

What's going to make me feel a
sense of fulfillment and joy?

Um, that goes beyond the financial
rewards, the, even the, you

know, fame, basically beyond
the fame and fortune, right?

Um, I, I, I sometimes think that maybe
in the Western culture and in in the

United States, we don't, Talk about that
so much, you know, um, but, but these

are things that I think that our students
are, have been feeling, especially in the

last few years after COVID, especially
after COVID after, um, um, you know,

these, you know, those years of sort of
isolation and sort of trying to think

about meaning and, and it's sort of
like a wake up call for everyone, right?

Um, And I, I, I have found a
lot of people, young people are

actually having these conversations.

You know, some of it is about work
life balance, but it's actually a lot

more about, you know, some of them are
like, I, I, I don't want to, um, be an

engineer and just work on how to make a
banner ad, you know, be more effective.

Um, even if that were going
to pay you a lot of money,

um, they don't want that job.

They want something a
little bit more meaningful.

That's a part of Conversation that I
have with people that make gives me so

much hope and and optimism about the
world But I think it really comes from

Opportunities that you are providing
to your students through these courses.

Yeah, we have we have a lot of students
who Um, when they get to U of A and

they, and they take, in a unit of
one to one, when we're trying to get

them to explore things that they're
interested in, they actually, in a lot

of ways, they're stymied by it, right?

Like, they, they're
confused by the question.

When we ask them, like,
what are you curious about?

What do you want to learn?

It actually, is a moment of panic for
some of them because in 12 years of

formal education, some of them have
never had an educator ask them, what

is it that you're curious about, right?

Um, and so it's this, this kind of
aha moment for them of understanding

that what they're interested in,
uh, has value and it's important.

And it can actually direct their
learning and, oh my goodness,

maybe even make learning fun.

Um, it's, it's such a
revelation for some of them.

Um, and I know on the, on the other end,
you started off by talking about purpose.

I know that Devon's got plenty of examples
of, of students who in the portfolio

process have kind of found that purpose.

Yeah.

And I think what we're hoping to do,
um, You know, these, the courses that

Tom and I lead, right, um, are really
asking students, um, to forefront,

like, what's in it for them, right?

And what have they learned?

And then how does that
learning matter to them?

And I think that that is a pedagogical
shift, uh, in mindset that Many

students are unfamiliar with because
so much of it is tell me what I've

taught you and demonstrate that you
know and have received the information.

And, um, it's not to say that
that still doesn't happen, right?

But really to center, um, and put the
responsibility on the student as the

learner and drivers of their meaning
making, uh, gives purpose, uh, like

a new light and then in turn we know
that when we understand why we're

doing something and what value it
might offer me, I'm more like energized

to follow through on it, right?

It, it adds a layer of motivation
and commitment to learning, um,

that may not exist otherwise.

Um, so I think that that's an exciting
moment for students, um, and something

that We try to preserve, uh, as
much as, right, in, in higher ed and

education, there's always external
factors that place pressure on

curriculum, on, um, you know, standards
of learning and things like that.

But to preserve the piece that the student
is the primary agent and responsible for

their learning and we're here to support
that learning, um, is something that we,

Keep close and in our work and our values.

Yeah.

Can I say something that I think
people Really sometimes don't

realize what you all do is hard work.

It's really hard work You are you
know, it's it's almost like to me.

It feels like if I were to compare,
you know Here's ten things.

I just want students to remember them
and then test them on it It almost

feels, Oh man, that would have been easy.

Right.

But what you guys do are saying, Oh no,
we are trying to get to every person and

try to try to figure out who they each
are, that they are going to come up with

answers that we, we, we have no idea.

We get, we have to read each of
them, each, each one of them.

We have to understand each one of them.

We have to take into context and come up
with a way to give them feedback, right?

That's a lot more work than just
saying, what are the 10 correct answers?

I can just check it, yes or
no, and then be done, right?

So I think that people sometimes almost,
I almost feel like, you know, there's,

I talked to some students that go,
well, I'm thinking about just going to

do this little bootcamp or whatever.

I'm not saying those things are bad.

I just think that they have no idea.

Like they're not even comparing apples
to to this is apples and and trees, you

know, it's not even They're like in a
different league or completely different

league And and so so so and speaking of
hard work I want to talk a little bit

about the scale in which you do this
in because I've heard people that go,

well, that'd be nice because you are
in the, uh, Liberal Arts, you know,

program where you have 12 students in
your class, you can all discuss and,

you know, have this like wonderful,
you know, cohort and, and do all that.

Can you tell, Tell us a little bit
about the scale in which you work in.

I mean, you have, by the way,
everything you said is, you know,

is great, is personalized, is
ambitious, is customized, right?

But at what scale?

Are we talking about like 30 students?

Are we talking about 50 students?

What are we talking about?

We're talking about a lot of students.

So our, our classes are capped at 27.

Students right now are individual sections
of our classes, but, um, UNIV 101 is,

is, well, UNIV 101 and 301 are required
for all students who are admitted as

first year students to the University of
Arizona, which is about 9, 000 students.

Each fall, um, plus a few spring admits.

And now, you know, also with Arizona
online, we have, um, you know, much

smaller, but still a population there.

Um, so scaling it was a challenge.

I mean, we, we piloted UNIV 101 with
14 sections in the spring of 22 and

had to scale it to like 340 sections.

in the space of four months.

Um, and so it's, it's a, it's
a, it's a big lift, right?

And so, and three, you know, you
know, 301 is probably, I don't

know, Devon, maybe a year away from
being at full, kind of full growth.

And so we're, we're talking
about 7 to 800 sections of...

between the two classes a year, um,
and at 27 students a section, if you've

got some good quantitative reasoning
skills, you can figure out it's a lot of

sections, and it's a lot of instructors.

Um, it's a lot of classroom space for,
you know, one on one, which is in person.

Um, it's a lot of grading.

So, um, the scaling has been
really big, um, but it can happen.

And we've heard the same thing, like, oh,
it's, it, it can't, you can't do something

like that at an institution this size.

Well, you can if it's an
institutional priority, right?

So I want people who are
listening to realize how how

crazy this, these numbers are.

So we're talking about, it's not, we're
not trying to like do this with, you

know, like 12 students in a class and
that luxurious, you know, classroom.

We're talking about, you know, like
9, 000 students a year coming through.

Every single year.

So every single year you get 9, 000 fresh
new students going through this process.

So that's, and that's in 101.

And so then you've got, you know, now six
to seven a year who are going through 301.

So, so we're talking, you know,
well north of 15, 000 students a

year go through The courses that
you both direct and this is by all

means, it's, it's a huge team effort.

There's a lot of faculty members, a lot
of, a lot of different folks, um, in it.

And in fact, I remember, um, seeing
the, um, uh, You know, General Education

webpage at University of Arizona.

And there are like, I mean, the staff
is like a huge list, um, you know,

just to just include everyone in there.

Right.

Um, there's, uh, there
are many professors.

There are many assistants.

There are, there are, there are, there are
a lot of people that, that make this work,

but you only can make it work because
it's a priority for the institution.

So tell me about.

I'll tell all of us about why, like, how
did that happen at University of Arizona?

General Education.

In some schools, it's always
been called General Education.

In some schools, it's
Liberal Arts studies.

Sometimes they're called,
you know, something else.

Um, foundational programs
or skills, you know.

There's all kinds of, you know, ways
that people, different schools call it.

Um, I believe that you've had a General
Education program for a long time.

But you, uh, Like you said, in 2022
started rolling out a new version of it.

I mean, this is a huge undertaking, right?

This is not a, this is one of
those things that people think.

And I want to dismiss some
myths, like college are doing the

same thing over and over again.

Well, they, I guess it depends on
the scale and the, and the time

timeline you're talking about.

Sometimes they do the same
things, but when, and they,

they're not sitting still either.

Um, and when something work, they do
it for a while and then they, when

they realize that something needs to
be changed, they actually make changes.

And, and this is a great example of an
institution of your size, being able

to just go, we're gonna pick up this
entire General Education program that's

been in existence for many years and
we're gonna revamp the whole thing.

Right?

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

It must be, must be quite an effort.

I look it up.

Too many, too many.

I know.

It brings up a lot of memories.

I think, I think the most important
thing for me to always keep in mind Um,

when I talk about the General Education
refresh, is that it was done very

intentionally and in, and in many ways
done in response to student feedback.

And I think that is really important
because one of the values of our office of

General Education is really, um, focusing
on the student experience and student

autonomy and, um, and what we learned.

from talking to students is that they,
not surprisingly, didn't understand the

purpose of General Education, didn't
understand why they had to do it, what

they were learning, what they had learned,
and we really wanted the new program

to respond to those concerns, right?

We also wanted to respond to, you
know, our Board of Regents, and we

wanted to respond to other external
constituents, but, like, we want to

respond to these student issues that
were being raised that, um, the students

weren't finding value in it, and one
of the reasons why students weren't

finding value in it is because they were
focused on content acquisition, right?

They were focusing on learning about
zombies, and the fact that learning about

zombies is not practical information
and making this mindset shift and

cultural shift at the institution from
content to perspective taking, right?

That like, through learning about zombies,
you develop an entirely new perspective

on history, on literature, on um, on
the ways that that human storytelling

happens, like that perspective is the
value of General Education as much or more

so as learning the thing about zombies.

Um, but that also you have to,
you have to invest time and effort

in making meaning of it, right?

So students engage in a lot of reflection
in these classes because that's the

process by which students make meaning
of what they're learning, right?

That they, they have to think about
what it is they experienced and

how that relates to other things
that they've learned and how

they can apply it in the future.

Um, because without that, the perspective
taking doesn't, doesn't really happen and

doesn't really have a whole lot of value.

Yeah.

In addition to that, right, we, in
responding to the student feedback,

we also needed the faculty who are
involved in teaching the bulk of the

General Education courses, right, and,
and designing, you know, informing the

curriculum and the kinds of classes that
are included in our General Education

to be invested in that process as well.

And one thing that.

You know, I, I feel is absolutely true
for faculty and instructors who's,

like, the ones that teach our General
Education are some of our best faculty and

instructors on this campus by far, right?

Like, they have the enthusiasm, the
expertise, and the experience with

teaching students, and they bring
that to the classroom, and we're proud

to getting them bought in on this
new way of teaching and thinking.

Many of them were already doing this
already, so it was a way to acknowledge

their work and to center effective
teaching and learning in our General

Education curriculum that was maybe
previously under recognized, right?

Um, and one of the benefits now that
we're starting to see that we've been

facilitating, uh, these two Bookend
courses is that then many of our faculty

and instructors who teach 101 or to
teach 301 also teach General Education

classes and then students are taking
their classes with them and they're

reading about, Oh, like I took this
class with this person and they're

the author for my reading this week.

And then that faculty member is also
connected to a network of professionals

and instructors and faculty from
all across campus to share in their

teaching and and their pedagogy.

And then that informs how they then
show up in their other classes,

their General Education classes
or major or disciplinary areas.

So, it's taken a long time, right?

Like that kind of culture shift
doesn't just happen when you

launch a new program, right?

But it takes a couple years
because then, We get more folks

who are teaching the classes.

We have more students who
are taking the classes.

And so then they also are
starting to hear about it.

Right.

And it becomes a little bit more
of like, this is what we do.

We, we engage in reflection.

We take our Gen Eds and we, you know,
have an understanding of what, what I

can get out of it and how that connects.

Um, so it's a large effort to
get it going, but then actually

to sustain the work and make it
meaningful requires an ongoing.

Uh, faculty and instructional
community, uh, to, to sustain

that work and to make it real.

Here's a preview of what's coming up
next in part two of my conversation

with Devon Thomas Jones and Thomas
Murray from University of Arizona.

Yes, is there something about being human
that makes reflection somewhat natural?

Perhaps.

But it's a skill, right?

It's like any other skill.

The more you do it, the more intentional
you are, the more practice you have.

The better you get.