Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll.

In this episode, you'll hear part one
of my conversation with Bill Torgerson,

a lecturer in Rhetoric and Composition
at Appalachian State University.

My conversation with Bill took
place before Hurricane Helene, which

has had devastating effects on the
campus and surrounding communities.

We have included donation information
in the show notes for the App

State Disaster Relief Fund and the
restoration of the treasured Valle

Crucis Park in Bill's neighborhood.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on YouTube

and your favorite podcast app.

Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll,
and I'm so excited today to

introduce you to Bill Torgerson.

Bill is a lecturer in Rhetoric and
Composition at Appalachian State

University in North Carolina.

Welcome, Bill.

Thanks, I'm very impressed that you
nailed the Appalachian pronunciation.

Oh, well, I've been corrected before.

When I came, I was in New York before I
came, uh, to Boone, and they let me know

right away that I was saying it wrong, so.

Yeah.

Well done.

Well, thank you.

I appreciate that.

I, I tend to kind of go back and forth
because even though I grew up not

far away up in Stanton, Virginia, we
say it a little differently there.

So I, I got corrected right away.

I think actually on a prior podcast
with one of your colleagues.

So it's all fun.

It's all fun.

Um, so I know Bill, you've been using
Digication for quite a long time.

And I, I look forward to hearing
about how you got started with

that and how you're using it today.

But before we start talking about
technology, um, I'd love to hear a

little bit about how you find your,
how you found your way to App State.

Yeah, well, one thing I, I like to
say that I live in Boone on purpose.

Um, So we, you know, made some
sacrifices and some drastic moves

to get, uh, to the Boone area.

I think, um, if I back up, um,
I went to graduate school in

Georgia and was really bent and
focused on being a Creative Writer.

Um, so I have an MFA in Creative Writing.

And I, and all I really wanted to
do is become a better Writer and

didn't have career aspirations.

Like I want to be a professor.

Um, but then as I worked on the
MFA, I realized, Oh, there could

be some college Teaching jobs.

Uh, I applied for jobs all over the
country, probably like 75 jobs had

something like four interviews and the
job I ended up accepting was at St.

John's university.

Um, and so we had a lot of academic
freedom, but one of the kind of direct

orders we had was you will use Digication.

Um, and you will have a portfolio.

Um, so that was just
sort of thrust upon me.

Um, and it wasn't long until
I really began to value, um,

just writing in digital spaces.

I thought as a teacher of writing,
if we're not working in digital

spaces, what are we doing?

Um, so that was exciting and
that engaged the students.

And so with that little nugget I'll
be like, being made to do something

that really grew into the other
tool that I've used ever since.

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that.

I was just kind of curious with the
teaching that you're doing now, and the

kind of students that you're working with.

Do you have a lot of students
that are coming in to, just

you know, for their love and appreciation
of the, the craft of writing and a

similar kind of mindset that, that you
were in, or do you have a lot of people

that are already kind of thinking about
what am I going to do after college?

Well, so at App State, um, we
have something called the Vertical

Writing Curriculum, which is one
of the exciting things about being

here in that the students have
four required writing classes.

Throughout their time as an undergraduate.

So I teach in that program.

And so people are taking a
class that they have to take.

Um, so no, most of my students
walk into the classroom saying.

I thought I tested out of this.

Why do I have to take this in my major?

Um, and so one of the early goals
for me is just to kind of shift that

attitude a little bit more towards
the positive and help them experience

writing as something that's pleasurable.

And I tend to not have a very
difficult time of doing that.

They have a lot of
choices about their work.

Um, and one of the things
that's really guided me.

for decades is the idea
that it's fun to make stuff.

And so, and so, uh, a ...port, a digital
portfolio is something that you're making.

And so once students start
engaging in that, uh, they start

to forget that they're doing work
and because they're working on

something they've chosen to work on.

Um, Enthusiasm starts to grow.

So it's been a really useful, uh,
tool for me to kind of engage students

and get them excited about writing.

Oh, that's wonderful.

And, you know, it's always been
our kind of hope that Instructors

and students will approach it as
its own kind of space for creation.

You know, certainly people can upload
documents and, and files, but we're

always hoping that they really use
it as that kind of opportunity for

creating and building and exploring.

So when you're introducing students
to this kind of digital space,

how do you describe it to them?

What are some of the early
conversations that you have with

them about how it's going to be used?

I've heard you talk before just
about like process portfolios

or more polished portfolios.

So we, we, for example, use
Google docs as a place to draft.

And we talk about, uh, we
call them "aPortfolios".

We brand everything with an
A at App State, so, Mm-Hmm.

. So we, no, I still, I have to
remind them that, you know,

these are electronic portfolios.

No one else is gonna call this
an aPort when you leave here.

Um, but we, we think about,
uh, publishing to the aPort.

Yeah.

And we do that, um, as we go, which
I think is, it's not even like

convincing them, it's, we've got this
draft of this piece we've been working

on, and now we're gonna publish it.

To this space, which, you know, it was
kind of like your own personal website.

Um, and so we decide to
do that together in class.

And so they leave the class, you know,
one third started, or, or they've at

least sort of had an introduction to it
because we've all worked on that together.

So, and then it's.

I think a good sign is that, um,
it's a space where the students

do way more than that's required.

So, you know, I lay out, uh,
you know, a grading guide.

Here's the expectations for what
you're going to do in this space.

You know, two images, there's
captions, embed video, use

some links, whatever it is.

Uh, and they always go overboard.

There's always more, more of
everything that I asked for.

So that's always a good sign
when students work far beyond the

expectations of the assignment Yeah.

And so how do you Kind of prepare them
for what the expectations will be.

You mentioned that there's some kind of
requirements in the beginning about what

kind of content that they might upload,
but how, how are they actually graded

or assessed as part of your course?

Cause that's a question that we often
get, you know, are there specific

kinds of rubrics that you used?

Are peers involved in looking
at each other's materials?

How do you kind of let them know
what those expectations are?

So it would be yes to all of those things.

Um, and then to start to
break it down a little bit.

Um, it's a little bit more, I
think, of a labor based approach.

Uh, probably not purely that, but
all that means is, um, I'm asking

for these, things to be part of
the composition of your text.

And if they're there, you get the credit.

And if they're not there,
you don't get the credit.

Um, you can always revise what
you've done for a better grade as

long as the course is still going.

Um, so it's, it's almost like
you get a temporary score.

So it's things like word count and
number of images, um, use of space, use

of color, um, captions on the images.

So that's kind of what we talk about.

Um, and then we use, um, something called
as you learn, which is a Moodle, whatever,

it's a Learning Management System and
you can create custom grading guides.

Um, and so it's always just like,
you know, three to five categories,

like I just said, images, use of,
uh, internal citations, use of

space, use of color, design is a big
category, is one of the categories.

So I score that and I write
them a note at the bottom.

Which sort of engages with their
ideas and content, but also says,

Hey, you lost three points because
you forgot your captions or you just

threw your three images on the bottom.

If you want to move those back,
integrate those into the text, then,

you know, this can be a better grade.

So that's, that's sort of the
grading, grading assessment part.

Um, and then, you know, the challenge,
whether it's an online class, a hybrid

class or solely face to face class,
um, you know, one of the things I

take pride in is creating community.

I used to have this professor that
always said, Sam Watson at UNC

Charlotte, he would always say, Writing
floats on a sea of conversation.

And so I'm trying to shift
students out of error finding.

Let's just talk to each other.

Let's be a thoughtful, engaged
audience for each other.

And that will take, you know, we don't,
we don't need to point out mistakes.

It's just like, Hey Kelly, I'm Bill.

You're getting to know me.

I'm listening to you.

I have questions about what you're doing.

And so that kind of interaction among
the students, um, it motivates them.

It gives them a sense of audience.

It helps them write more effectively.

Because they can imagine what
they need to say to each other.

Um, and so we have forums in
our learning management system.

Where we comment in the forum
about each other's portfolios.

Nice.

Nice.

And how often are they kind of
looking at each other's work?

Are they looking at some
of the early drafts?

Do you have them focus more
on some of the final versions?

How do you kind of get the work
on building that community as

part of sharing their work?

We, I mean, I think one of the first
things we do, which takes a little

bit of time, but seems worth it to
me, um, is that we write an academic

profile to start, uh, the course.

So, um, you know, if you were, if you're
writing a profile for a dating website,

which I've never done, um, cause I'm
old and happily married for a long time.

Um, you know, that would
be a different audience.

Like what you would say in that
profile would be different.

But here we are at App State and
you have a major and you have

professors and you have classmates.

Um, so that profile is different,
so that automatically gets

us thinking about audience.

Um, so we do some pre writing, we keep
a, a digital journal that I call a day

book after somebody like Donald Murray.

Um, so we do that in a doc, so we
have pre writing, we write drafts,

we comment on each other's drafts.

Um, we publish to Digication,
and then I do take what usually

is two full class periods.

For students to give like a five
minute about me presentation, um, where

it's like, Oh, you live in Raleigh.

I went to high school in Raleigh.

Where did you go?

So, so just automatically there's
all this conversation that sparks up.

Oh, you're an EMT.

I'm an EMT.

Oh, you're, you work at the Ski School.

I w...

i, you know, whatever
it is that's going on.

So all these connections are built
within the first couple of weeks.

And then we just repeat that kind of
cycle through all of our projects for

the course of a semester, where it's
like pre-writing, stop and talk to each

other, check in on drafts, publish,
look at each other's publications.

And then I always, you know, I'm not
going to copy everything you do, Kelly.

But when I look at your portfolio, I get
ideas for myself, like, Oh, I see what

she did and this is what I want to do.

Um, and that's that kind of writing
floats on a sea of conversation piece.

Nice.

Nice.

Yeah.

Do you find that students often
get inspired by some of the design

elements of the content that
they're creating at that time?

Sure, it's both.

I mean, it's, it's, there are some
students that are just self motivated

and excited to experiment and can't
wait to learn from each other.

And then there's other people, and maybe
sometimes you can be each of these people,

you're like, oh, I need to step up my
game because I just saw Kelly's portfolio.

It's incredible.

I just copied and pasted a
bunch of text into one box.

Um, I need to do better than this.

So, so it works both ways.

I mean, I'm not trying to shame people
into working harder, but, um, they just

do it themselves, they see it and they
get motivated, uh, because of the work,

uh, of their classmates sometimes.

So it works in all kinds of ways.

That's great.

Yeah.

So healthy...

Healthy, pure motivation.

And really when we were creating
Digication, uh, a lot of it came out of,

Both, uh, my experience and the experience
of Digication's co founder, Jeff Yan.

Uh, because when we were in
college, we were at a design school

where we're always working in
this kind of studio environment.

So from the very beginning of receiving
a kind of prompt from an instructor, you

know, other people were walking around
viewing what you were creating and, you

It was kind of impossible to not get
inspired by other people that were in

the room and instructors would kind of
wander through and give little desk crits

and feedback as you were building things,
um, classmates would come by and, you

know, sometimes give you props or ideas.

And it was a very, um, wonderful
kind of experience and so

different from what we had done,
you know, coming up through K-12.

So it was really eye opening and exciting.

And so when we were creating
this kind of environment for

students, we really wanted.

There to be that kind of opportunity,
but now in a, in a digital space.

So, it's wonderful to hear that
your students are doing that.

When you were a freshman in college,
when you were heading off to college, um,

and we both have, I think, 18 year olds.

We do.

What did you think the arc of
your life was going to be then?

Did you know?

Did you think you know?

I would imagine it shifted.

I wouldn't think you thought you were
going to be the co founder of Digication

when you were 18, but maybe you didn't.

Absolutely not!

Absolutely not.

And this is something that we
talked to the kids about a lot here.

You know, I do have a senior and, uh,
two sophomores and also some little guys.

And we talk a lot about how, you know,
you may have some ideas in mind about

your future trajectory, but you know,
the people you meet and the places you

go and the different experiences that you
have will certainly kind of shift things

and, um, carry you on different paths.

And yeah, when I started college, uh,
I actually majored in textile design

and, um, had just kind of fallen in
love with, uh, painting on fabric, uh,

in my little corner of the basement
in the home that I grew up in.

And so when I got into this,

That's where I went, but, um, uh,
the, um, kind of foundation year

at Rhode Island School of Design
was just, like, so transformative.

So even though I stayed in that path
of textile design, my, like, whole

vision of art making and drawing and
painting and, I mean, it just opened

up a totally different world to me.

I had no intention at all of even taking
computer classes, but I happened to fall

into one that, um, yeah, just shifted
my path and, um, also didn't plan to

become any kind of, uh, teacher and
then started teaching at the school

that I went to after graduation.

And from there started
building tools for my students.

So you just.

You just don't know where things are
gonna are gonna take you and I'm sure

as an educator you love working with
students kind of for that reason right

you're kind of catching them at this
kind of moment in time where they've

got ideas and you can kind of I remember
I think when you know when I I think

first knew about Digication and met
Jeff, I don't know, 15 or 20 years ago.

It seemed like there was a sense of
you saying to yourselves, we need

something better than what we have here.

And so then you started to work on
creating a space that would be better

for, uh, you know, art, creative
minded students to have a space

to, um, put what they were making.

Yeah, yeah, and it really did start as
something I was teaching in the education

program at the time that we started
building this and it was called the

Digital Media Design Studio, but it was
for you know people that were preparing

to become future art educators And many
of my students had, you know, ideas about

what that meant and may or may not have
used, um, computers to make art or, um,

create lesson plans and curriculum maps.

So there's kind of a combination of,
you know, tools that we were using and

the portfolio at the time was something
that, you know, was definitely used for

kind of creating that showcase of art.

But within that education program was
really about capturing their experience

throughout their time at the program
and the program was using it to give

them feedback and Kind of track progress
toward those professional practice,

teaching standards, and really also
wanted it to be something that they could

take with them to use after graduation
for their own career advancement.

So, you know, I was really trying to
model a lot of things for the students

at the time and the way that I was
using technology in the classroom and

the, the learning management systems
weren't going to cut it because

it wasn't something that I just.

for an individual course.

It was really something that was
going to be, you know, something

that they were going to touch
throughout their time at the program

and then continue to have access to.

And so, yeah, Jeff and I were
just like, well, let's just

build something for our students.

You know, we're not
finding the right kind of.

environment.

And, you know, we innocently embarked
on that thinking we were going to be

working on it for a weekend or so.

And, you know, over 20 years
later, now here we are.

But you really were, you know, using it
in a, in some of the early stages of the

platform and you've seen it kind of evolve
over the last, you know, 10-plus years,

um, what are, have there been any shifts?

You know, you mentioned that
it was just kind of thrust

upon you when you joined App.

State.

Have, have there, has there been some
evolution in kind of how you use it or

maybe some of the, you know, changes
in the platform that may have, you

know, given you other opportunities.

Yeah, I mean, the first thing I would
say is going all the way back to St.

John's, St.

John's is the spot in Queens
where it was thrust upon me.

Um, you know, the guy, the guy
who was directing the program

then, his name is Derek Owens, you
probably know him or remember him.

So, you know, when I hear you talk about
um, your life as an artist, I can see

why You and Jeff appealed to Derek.

I mean, it would make a lot of sense.

I mean, he has that same, I
think, kind of perspective.

Um, so the, the platform has just
gotten much, much more intuitive to use.

Um, where, you know, I think the learning
curve to like popping on there and making

stuff is, you know, much more simple than
it was, of course, 15 or 20 years ago.

Um, and so, uh, I think just the
only thing that's sort of been

evolving It's just the constant
change of technology, right?

Um, Yeah.

Whereas, I mean, I like, we talk about
discourses, groups of, with common goals

and specialized language and so forth.

Um, and sometimes the students, like,
don't get how discourses change.

But, you know, I started teaching in 1995.

I didn't have an email account.

There was no internet.

No one had a cell phone.

So, of course, like, the ways
that teaching has changed.

Writing has changed since the mid 90s.

Um, so that's sort of what I think
of, but, um, just the, and then maybe

the students tend to be, um, they're,
they very willingly engage and they're

thoughtful and they ask me questions
of things that I haven't thought of.

Um, so, you know, we continue to
have really good experiences around.

The digital space and Digication
is where we do most of that.

That's wonderful.

Do you know, as your students are kind
of publishing their writing, do you find

that they have Um, already comfort in
that kind of process of sharing, or do you

have students that, you know, maybe feel
comfortable sharing things with you and

their peers, but may not want to open it
up beyond that particular course or share

it with audiences outside of the school,
what, what's your kind of feeling from the

students that you're working with today?

Yeah, I think what I think of.

You know, if I ask myself, why Digication?

Um, I mean, I think the, the ability to
toggle the privacy settings and to create

and do some of that work and not feel
like it's out on Google immediately, at

least, or out on a social media platform.

Um, that's certainly one of the values.

But then I think, Totally guessing,
you know, 85, 90 percent of my students

are totally fine and immediately eager.

And in fact, um, make themselves
really vulnerable really quickly

to the point where I'm like, Ooh,
you got, you really brought it.

Um, but, and then there are others who,
um, and I always introduce, you know,

you can make this private, private
to me, sort of go over the settings.

There are usually, you know.

One to four students in a group of 80
who, who prefer to keep it much more

private or, and then there's always
like, You know, I do require images,

but I don't require an image of you.

You know, it can be your dog, it
can be a flower, it can be the

clouds, it can be the view, whatever.

So, students, there is a variety
of what they choose as far as

making things public or private.

Yeah, yeah.

And we do find more and more, and this
is something that, you know, certainly

in the earlier days of Digication we
hadn't planned for, but you mentioned

that there's this importance of building
community within your classroom and

among the students that you're working
with and that you're finding that

sometimes students are kind of using
this space within Digication to You

know talk about things that are maybe
more kind of personal in nature You know

information about themselves or their
experiences how that's impacted them

Um, and I think, you know, a big driver
behind that seems to be students really

valuing the opportunity to share in order
to find connection and find community

within the institutions that they're in.

And I was curious if you've seen You
know, throughout the time that you've

been using that is that something that
you feel has kind of grown over time um,

I know sometimes if The spaces are just
used as kind of a showcase of final works.

We see some of that less often, but
if it is used as that kind of creation

space, the kind of human behind the
content starts to emerge and why

they're You know, creating the things
that they are starts to emerge.

So I was just kind of curious from
your perspective, if that seems

like something that has been kind of
evolving along with the, with the times.

Yeah.

I like your phrase human
behind the content.

Um, so, you know, if, if we're
interacting with just a learning

management system and it's just
like your name in black and white.

Letters with text and you're turning in
assignments, um, the human behind the

text, it's more difficult for that person
to emerge whereas when I'm, when I'm

clicking on, um, one thing I really like
about the electronic portfolios is when

I'm looking at a student's piece, um, all
their other pieces are right there too.

So that, that academic profile
that we mentioned, you know, I,

if I'm, if I'm teaching 3 online
classes and that's 70-ish students.

Um, I'm able to pop over to
that about me and just quickly

remind myself, who is this?

Um, in a way that I can't do if
I'm looking at one assignment

in a Learning Management System.

I think something I've noticed about
the students, maybe in the last

five years or so, is just a new
level of thoughtfulness about...

Digital spaces.

More so in, in fact, you know, more
critical of that space, a little

bit more reluctant to go there.

Not necessarily reluctant to use
Digication, but more likely to say,

you know, I don't have any social
media accounts, which I would have

seen maybe seven or eight years ago.

And also maybe, you know, I
have two teenagers at home,

probably more thoughtful.

Then they are also.

So I think just something about whether
it's apps, you know, leaving your house

and showing up in Boone and going to App.

State, um, just being a little bit
more thoughtful about what online

spaces they engage in and more likely
to say, um, you know, I limit my

social media to this and this and this
time, and I'm making sure I'm hiking

and I'm going out on the parkway.

And so I do see like, almost
like a new generation of.

of more thoughtful, less reluctant users
of, um, just social media, for example.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

I mean, they've really just grown
up so immersed in, you know, well,

many of them having a phone right in
front of them from the very beginning.

And I think you're right that, um, you
know, they're Making more choices about,

you know, the amount of time that they
spend on certain platforms and what the,

um, the value add is for them and their
experience and everything else that they

want to be able to spend their time doing.

And, um, You know, I think in the
beginning as these, uh, new tech,

the new technologies were kind of
coming into play in education context,

that there, there was kind of a,
a newness and a, a freshness and.

Um, the way that people may have been
posting things, um, and there's a lot

of competition for our attention now.

So it has to be kind of deliberate in
where they're choosing to spend their

time and, and what they're sharing
and who they're sharing it with.

And you mentioned earlier, there are
conversations with them a little bit

about audience and Are you talking
to them at all about, um, how this is

something that they could use after
graduation, um, with their alumni

access, ways that they could share
it with people outside of the school?

Sure.

So they're usually sophomores.

Um, so they're a little
ways down the road.

We definitely just talk about the idea of
a portfolio in the history of a portfolio.

Uh, even if it was physical, um,
and what they might potentially use.

We also talk a lot about, um, known
audiences and unknown audiences.

And that often, you know, if you're, if
you're posting something on TikTok, um,

or you're posting something on your, um,
portfolio, you know, there are people,

you know, are going to look at it.

But there's also people who are going
to read it and never thought about it.

So we, we, we talk about that.

Um, and then we, and of course, I
mean, for example, that you said you

taught in the education department,
they're all really conscious of the

fact that they're going to be creating
a portfolio, um, to be used later.

Others.

And, and I guess another thing that
comes up and a reason that I list as 'Why

Digication?' Um, it's because we're, my
students are almost all using Digication.

If you ask me for a letter of
recommendation two years, three years,

four years after I've had you, it's
so easy for me just to search for your

name and, and immediately be immersed
in your work as opposed to like looking

all, you know, do you still have
that link to that portfolio made on

this platform that no one else used?

So it really reduces like, um,
kind of the work, the work involved

in conjuring all that stuff up.

So that's something that,
um, I find useful about it.

Oh, good.

Good.

Yeah.

I don't know if I've had
someone mentioned that before,

but that makes a lot of sense.

I'm sure as soon as you see that
portfolio, you can kind of remember

the, um, the person and you have
that immediate access to the work

that they created within your course.

Um, and you mentioned that most of
them are sophomores in the, um, in

Rhetoric and Composition at App State.

Are there other courses where the students
may be utilizing this technology again?

Yeah, so that's, um, certainly within,
um, the Vertical Writing Curriculum,

um, so they could easily use it in
their required 1000 level class.

Mine's called 2001 Writing
Across the Curriculum.

So they, they, there are
students come to my class.

Some of them having used Digication.

Um, it's a little bit more of an
unknown once they, once they leave the

Vertical Writing Curriculum and go out.

into whatever their majors are.

I really, it's hard for me to say.

I, you know, I don't know.

Here's a preview of what's coming up
next in part two of my conversation

with Bill Torgerson, a lecturer
in Rhetoric and Composition at

Appalachian State University.

You know, the ability to learn content,
the ability to present the content

in an engaging way that makes it
easily digestible to the audience,

whether it's a player or a student.

Um, those are really important
in both of those spaces and

probably strengths of mine.