Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear part
one of my conversation with Kate Sonka,

Executive Director of Teach Access.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

My guest today is Kate Sonka,
Executive Director of Teach Access.

Hi, Kate.

Hi, Jeff.

It's so good to be here.

It's really great to see you again.

And, uh, Kate, um, now, Teach
Access is a non profit organization.

Um, I want, why don't you tell
us a little bit about, um, what

Teach Access is so that we are all
grounded to, to this, this episode.

I think it's going to be really exciting.

A lot of our listeners will be very
excited about what you have to say.

Yes.

Thank you so much, Jeff.

And again, thanks for having me.

So glad to be here.

Um, so Teach Access, uh, as you said,
we're a non profit organization.

Um, we're based here in the U S.

We're fully remote, so we don't
actually have sort of a home base.

I'm based in Michigan, we have
other team members in Michigan,

Tennessee, Puerto Rico, but we, we
collaborate with people across the U.

S.

Um, and our mission is to support,
Educators and faculty, uh, to

teach about accessibility, digital
accessibility and dis and disability.

Um, and so our, we also have programs
that, that support students as well, and

I'm sure we'll get into some of those.

Um, but our mission is to really think
about what is it that educators and

faculty need in terms of resources,
Curricular materials, trainings to

feel informed and comfortable to be
able to teach these topics to their

students, um, with the ultimate goal
of closing what we call the, um,

Accessibility Technology Skills Gap.

Sorry, I stumbled there a bit, um, but
this idea that industry and definitely

the tech industry, but, but all industry
is looking for recent graduates, um,

From from higher ed, uh, who knows
something about accessibility and who

knows something about disability, um, so
that as they enter into jobs, internships

in these organizations, they know to
include accessibility from the beginning,

um, so that products and services are
born accessible is what we call it.

So this idea that, you know, you and
I are starting to work together and we

want to develop a new app, um, and I
know that accessibility is something we

should consider, um, and, and you do too.

So we know, ah, we have to include
that from the beginning, um, because

We know that things will be put out
into the marketplace that are not

accessible, and of course what that
means is that people with disabilities

cannot interact with those products or
have difficulty interacting with that.

And so the idea is really we're
laying this groundwork, we're trying

to close the skills gap so that as
companies are hiring students and recent

graduates They know that accessibility
will be included from the beginning.

Um, and so we do a lot of work
that I know we'll dive into.

Um, but that's, that's our mission.

That is what a wonderful,
wonderful introduction.

And what a, um, what a, what
a, what a great mission.

And I should, I think it would be
important for our listener to know

that, um, for those who don't already,
Digication, um, and Teach Access,

um, have a partnership where, uh,
we have, you know, we, I think.

I think you and I met through, I actually
don't remember how we met, but I know

that we have a, um, a friend in common
and who is Mark Thompson, who happens

to be another Digication Scholar.

And he is, uh, Season Three, Episode 28.

Those are, that's what's in my notes.

And he's, um, he's from University of
Illinois in Urbana Champaign, who is

an accessibility universal design guru.

Um, And, um, I believe that he was in
one of your, uh, founding board members

or something, right, at Teach Access?

Yes, yes.

He's been, he's been with Teach
Access since we kicked off in 2016

and has been just a constant support
and, and volunteer and just always

willing to share his knowledge.

And, and, and that's part of
our work too, is, is building

this network of other educators.

Incredible educators like Mark, um, as
well as people in industry, disability

advocacy, non profit groups, um, really
building a network to help do this work,

um, because we can't do it alone, uh,
and, and Mark has been incredible in

coming and talking with other faculty
about, here's what I've done in my

courses and how I've taught this,
or, um, providing ideas on how they

could be teaching it in their courses.

So Mark is a big, big, big
friend of Teach Access.

And so we, and I, and, and, and
he's a big friend of Digication as

well, which I think is so lovely.

And, and I think that the, um, uh, I think
based on all of that circles, we have

overlapping because we obviously both
have interest in it, in, in accessibility.

Um, we got to know each other
and know, uh, having learned

about your mission, in which case
does not really do a lot of, um.

You know, this level of partnership
with organizations, but when we learned

about your mission, we thought, wow,
what an amazing set of resources.

And, and since we work with a lot of
faculty members and students across many

universities and K 12 schools, we thought,
wouldn't it be nice if we can, um, uh,

you know, promote some of the resources
that Teach Access has to offer, which

is genuinely just good content for both
faculty members and students, good for

teachers and students who are maybe, you
know, know, have heard a little bit about

accessibility, but don't know, don't know
how to do it, you know, aside from maybe

the limited experiences with, oh, right,
a video should have um captions and audio

should have transcripts maybe, and that
might be the extent of what they know.

Um, and so what, you know, and, and,
and it may not even be a huge part

of, you know, what they do day to day.

And, and, and for us to
have an opportunity to...

to, to provide some really quick,
easy to digest resources for them.

Um, you know, is, is a wonderful thing.

Um, we don't necessarily need
them to get a PhD in it, but, you

know, knowing that is, is, is, is
just the, the basic foundation.

Like you said, that skill gap promotes
the idea that whether they're building

an app or providing services, you know,
to, to, to their community, how, how can

accessibility be born with that idea?

You know, that comes with
everything that they do.

So maybe I would just
clarify one thing, which is.

You know, we, you use the example of
what if we build an app together, right?

It sounds very Silicon Valley, right?

But there's also the same as if you are
a journalist and you're going to go and

work for a newspaper, a more traditional
media company when, but you are still,

it doesn't matter what your job is.

You could be a writer.

You could be an editor.

You could be a photographer,
but you are going to.

Still advocate for accessibility
at whatever job that whatever way

that you contributed to society.

And I think that is just what
an amazing mission, Kate.

Thank you so much for bringing this,
this, um, this organization to life

and, and, and, and, and, and heading it.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I really appreciate that.

I think you really, um,

noticed something that is really part of
our ethos is this Everybody should know

a little bit, um, so one of the phrases
that we like to use a lot is we are about

breadth more than depth, um, and you
kind of hinted at this in a few different

ways, um, but this idea that we're really
trying to get a lot of people to know at

least a little bit, um, of course that
doesn't mean that it will take care of all

the accessibility needs, um, that exist.

For all types of
disabilities, of course not.

Um, but imagine what the world
would be like if everybody at

least knew, Hey, you know what?

Accessibility has to be a
part of the work that I do.

Just like you said, no matter where I'm
at, you know, if you're a journalist,

what, what language choices are you making
in terms of the way that maybe you're

talking about people with disabilities?

Or, um, you know, ableist
phrases or using plain language.

Um, and then of course the type of
media you're creating, what are you

doing to make sure that that media
and the, and the stories that you're

putting out and information is
accessible to people with disabilities.

And that's really what
we're looking at is.

If everybody knew a little
bit, um, think of how we would

continue to advance, right?

We will always need people
who are accessibility experts.

They're crucially important to
us being able to do this work.

Imagine if their time was able
to be spent more on some of those

challenging accessibility questions.

How to make different things
function in different ways.

Um, and maybe less time, less of their
time, you know, training incoming

new hires on This is what alternative
text is, or here's what the Web

Content Accessibility Guidelines are.

Um, if everyone kind of understood,
yeah, those things are out there,

um, I know how to do some of this.

I know where to go to find more
information, or have to call in the,

you know, the internal accessibility
team, because this one is a little bit

more than what I'm Aware of enough to
be able to do, uh, if that makes sense.

So, um, it's really part of
what we're trying to do is broad

understanding about accessibility.

Um, of course, if you look at
disability, um, statistics, there's

so many different places you can
go to find this information, but.

For example, the World Health
Organization estimates that about 20

percent of the population, world's
population, has a disability.

It's likely higher, right?

Because it's self reported data, and
there's all sorts of reasons that people

choose not to report or aren't aware
that they have a disability, perhaps,

or don't think of it as a disability,
or whatever that might look like.

So that means that one in four
people, uh, Actually, that's, yeah,

a little higher than that, I guess.

25%, one in four people has
a disability, um, or knows

somebody who has a disability.

And so when you think of it that
way, no matter what you're doing,

somebody will interact with, with your
work who identifies as disabled or

knows someone who has a disability.

So it's crucial that we
all are aware of this.

Um, another thing that, that, We talk
about often with faculty and students

is that, you know, the disability
community is one that any of us could

enter and at any time in our life, um,
permanently, temporarily, situationally.

And so when we think of other types
of, um, identity groups that some

of us are born into, we're, we're
members of those groups, right?

Our whole lives.

Um, disability is one that you can be born
into, but you can also join at any point.

At any time.

And so it truly does affect
all of us in some way.

And so the more we can bring awareness
to that, that this is part of human, you

know, this, this is, these are humans.

We're humans.

Um, it's, it's important
to, to be able to do that.

So I think that's, that's,
that's really, really great.

I, I, I wanted to paint a little picture
for, for us to ponder a little bit, which

is, you know, like, even if you are not
someone who feels like, You're not, um,

you know, I'm not designing a product.

I'm not responsible for any of that.

I think, like you said, to participate
does not require you to do any of that.

So for example, today we, we, um.

Many of us actively participate
in, you know, social media such

as, um, TikTok and Instagram.

Most of these, you know,
services are not designed with

accessibility in mind at all.

In fact, many of them, um, You
know, it's not even in the roadmap.

There is no way to, to make it accessible.

The, the product itself was not like
you said, born with accessibility

as part of its formulation.

Um, in fact, I would probably say
that for, for, for many of these

services, they have given up on people
who would not be able to access their

service and they're okay with it.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Yeah, that's an interesting question.

I, so I have to say, you know,
part of the, the, um, work that we

do and the collaborations we have
are with a lot of tech companies.

Um, that's really where we
were born out of, actually.

Conversations that, um, some
people at Facebook, now Meta.

We're having with some folks at Yahoo
and, and they were identifying the skills

gap and this was back in like 2015.

I mean, it's existed longer than that,
but in 2015, they were saying, you

know, we can't, when we're hiring recent
graduates, they don't know about this.

And so, you know, I, there's,
Always room for improvement.

You know, we're never, we're
never done with accessibility.

We never are 100 percent done with it
because there will always be, you know,

a new update or, or you meet someone, um,
or someone is using your product who has

a specific, um, type of disability that
you hadn't thought about or considered

and, and, you know, need to go back and
take a look at how, how to make it work.

Um, so.

While there's plenty of, of space for
improvement, um, I do think there's,

you know, a number of, of companies
that we work with who have internal

accessibility teams, um, who are working
really hard to figure out how to, uh,

create new products that are accessible,
but also remediate what exists out there.

Um, and I think, I think there's,
There are all types of people at every

stage, right, of the process in making
their products and services accessible.

So, um, but that's what
our hope is, right?

If we can continue to reach, or as we
continue to reach all of the students

that we can, they come into these
organizations, whether it's Tech or any

organization, any industry, and they can
start to really move that needle, right?

That every meeting, someone saying,
we have to make this accessible.

How do we do that?

Um, or, or where do we
go to make that happen?

So, you know, it's a big, It's a
big undertaking, uh, for all of

us, but, but an important one.

So, yeah, I, I agree.

And I, and I think that, you know,
to the picture that I was going

to paint, which was, you know, it
might come a time where products

in general will find itself being.

Oh, we have to address this because
our consumers are knowledgeable

enough that they expect it, right?

So similar to if you, you wouldn't be
able to, I mean, if I go into a brand

new restaurant today and that this
restaurant is not, you know, accessible by

wheelchair, I would notice it and I'll be
like, well, how, how would you serve that?

And how did you even get to
this point where you can have

a restaurant that is new?

Right.

And, and, and it's something that
you'd, you'd, you'd, you would,

you would sort of go, you would,
you would ask questions about it.

And, and I think that that's, um,
that's a really healthy thing.

It's a healthy thing for our society.

It's a, you're almost like giving it
some, you mean it, uh, um, uh, What,

what is it that I'm going to, I'm
trying to say you're, you're giving

it, um, sort of a defense mechanism,
you know, a self corrective self, um,

mechanism by letting all of us, letting
the general society gain a higher level

of awareness of digital accessibility.

We just talked about wheelchairs,
which many of us would, would

know and notice, you know, right.

Right.

But when we are then starting to talk
about, um, digital accessibility,

we're not there yet, right?

Like you, as you mentioned, all alternate
texts for images, I'm sure that some of

our listeners will go, well, what is that?

Absolutely.

Um, and, uh, but, you know, As they
learn more about it, then it becomes

something that they go, okay, I may
not even be the one who's creating

something that will use this alt
text or have anything to do with it.

But if I come across someone who
talks about it and saying that

they, they, they can't access an
image because it was lacking this

text, I would know what it is.

And I would know that They should have
done it, and they would demand it, right?

And I think that that's,
that's what it's about, right?

Getting that, that, that
literacy out to people.

It really is.

And I think, you know, it's interesting.

You bring up the idea of how we notice
if something maybe isn't wheelchair

accessible, um, versus, you know, thinking
about digital spaces and accessibility.

And some of that is by nature
of, um, So we, we know about the

Americans with Disabilities Act.

Um, and prior to that there were
other pieces of legislation, um, the

Rehabilitation Act, um, and others
who were identifying in the ADA for

short Americans with Disabilities Act.

ADA was signed into law in 1990,
so not that long ago really.

Um, but what that did lay the
groundwork for, and what that required

was that we have to make public
spaces and, and others accessible.

You know, physical spaces.

And so, you know, people I think
have a more, um, a longer, have had

a longer chance to understand, like,
okay, I understand what that means.

There needs to be wheelchair
accessibility into a building,

or there needs to be braille, um,
available and in signage and so forth.

Um, where was the internet in 1990?

I mean, it existed, but
not like it does now.

Right?

I mean, not like it did even 20 years ago.

Uh, and so...

It's been, I think what you've identified
is, is what a lot of us have been working

on in accessibility is that, you know,
general public awareness, if you talk

about disability, um, or accessibility
as it relates to physical buildings, it's

like, oh, yeah, I understand that means
we have to uh, you know, an elevator,

whatever, whatever those things may be.

There's many.

Um, they're just, there's no real
legislation that's been around as

long to say, here's what it has
to look like for digital spaces.

Um, there is something for, for
listeners, if they aren't familiar

with, it's called the Web Accessibility
Content Guidelines or WCAG.

Some people pronounce
that acronym WCAG or WCAG.

It's, you know, any number of ways.

Um, but this is a set of guidelines.

It's not legislation, it's not a law,
um, but it's a bunch of very intelligent

people who know what they're doing with
accessibility who've come together to

put together, um, the set of guidelines
to help all of us understand, okay, how

do we make digital spaces accessible?

Um, and so that exists and many entities,
especially anyone out there who works

for a university, you've probably
heard, okay, well, our university

says they're accessible for WCAG AA.

Um, so there's different levels within it.

Um, so it's, it's used as a tool, um,
to help people understand here's how

we make digital spaces accessible.

Um, and there's a whole bunch of
other legislation that, that, We

could certainly talk about or think
about or that's coming down and

thinking about these, these phsy...

Uh these digital spaces, but um it's
very interesting for that reason,

because you're right that it is about
awareness that some people are aware

over here on this side, because it's.

There's laws, or it's been around a
little bit longer, um, but the digital

space is still a very interesting
one, uh, to be, to be working

in for accessibility, for sure.

And, and I think that the, um, I think
that the, um, the idea that, Uh, more

and more services will be accessible.

Um, it is a good thing you
talked about some of the big tech

companies who are participating.

And by the way, I don't mean
to, you know, Of course, yeah.

keep up on them for not, um, for, for
not, you know, if they have things

that are, you know, that still need
to, you know, improvements or whatnot.

I'm just thinking more of the, you know,
and it's not about a big tech company.

It's about also, you know, Someone
in a garage building the next, you

know, really cool, you know, photo
sharing app, you know, photo sharing

app is actually, in fact, one of those
things that's it's photo sharing app.

How do I immediately think about photo
sharing also being an accessible version

of photo sharing from the get go?

So if, if, if that's part of your own
requirements, part of your own, you know,

goals, then you might take the product
in a completely different direction.

Right.

Absolutely.

Um, and, and, and by the way, just it's,
it's also happens to be good business

because like you said, you know, maybe
it's not one in four that you know,

cannot access a photo, but there is
some significant percentage still and

laws of large numbers when, you know, a
small percentage of a very large number

is still a very, very large number.

Um, right.

And, and, and that's
not something to ignore.

Now, I do think that, um, and I, I,
I don't know the history of this.

I probably should because I was
trained as an architect, um, for

the, you know, sort of physical
accessibility, you know, sort of history.

Um, I see now that, um, All, if
I'm correct, all at least federally

funded websites and maybe even
state funded websites usually are,

are required to be accessible.

Is that correct?

Either they're required, or they
are already being accessible.

So this is an interesting question
because if you so a lot of that comes

through actually through the ADA,
because of the way that it's written.

It talks about public spaces needing
to be accessible, and in rulings,

and I'll talk about a good resource
to check out more in one second,

but in a lot of these rulings and.

Uh, what's the word I'm looking for?

Lawsuits, I guess.

Um, the argument is the Internet
is a public space because

everybody has access to it.

I mean, of course, there's the question
around actually having access in terms of

bandwidth and ability, but as an entity,
anyone who has the ability to get to

an internet space can get to it, right?

So, so that's how, um, some of these
have been, uh, litigated, I guess.

Uh, and so when you think about that,
you're like, okay, well, if the ADA

covers, uh, or, or talks about public
spaces needing to be accessible,

like, you know, federal buildings and
state buildings and universities and

all of these places, um, that's how,
the, the conversation comes about

for digital accessibility as well.

Well, it is a public domain.

It's a public space.

It needs to be accessible.

Um, and for anyone who's like,
wow, I'm really intrigued by this

and I would like more information,
um, a super great resource.

Um, there's, uh, a good
friend of Teach Access.

Um, she's actually on our board
as well, but Lainey Feingold.

Um, and if I recall right off my brain,
I think it's LFLegal dot com or dot org.

I should have it memorized and I don't,
um, but Lainey is, uh, is a well known,

um, civil rights lawyer, disability rights
lawyer, and her website has a ton of

different information about, um, different
current lawsuits and past lawsuits.

Um, and just information
about the legal aspect of it.

So, um, for anyone out there who is
really interested, her, her site is very

approachable, very accessible, um, highly
recommend taking a look, um, at that.

We'll make sure to put that
into, into the show notes.

Now, um, Kate, I, I do think maybe
this is anecdotal, but, um, my

personal experience interacting with.

You know, like, you know, federal, you
know, websites and state websites, you

know, basically, in other words, things
like the DMV, where if you want to look

for information about, you know, pretty
much anything and, you know, in this

sort of, uh, uh, in a, from a federal
basis, especially, um, Most websites

now are actually very accessible and
quite, quite, uh, it's quite an amazing

improvement from, from years ago.

Um, in fact, I, I have found that through
COVID when perhaps that's one of the, one

of the things that sort of instigated this
during that time, we all need resources

from our, our government, you know, in
every dimension possible, whether it be

for transportation to sanitation, to the
CDC and, you know, all of that, right?

So I feel like that everything got
an upgrade in terms of accessibility.

Um, and I, and, and, and I mentioned
this also to observe that not

only are they more accessible.

But the websites
generally are just better.

They really are just, I feel like,
you know, if we were to do a study,

it would be objectively better.

Just number of clicks to get to spaces,
you know, being able to navigate,

you know, clearly from one place,
because those are actually some

accessibility, um, guidelines as well.

It's not always just about, you know,
like, that's your Image have an alt text.

Right.

Um, and so it's, I think it's
actually, it's, it's like accessibility

lift all boats, you know, we all
get to enjoy a better, um, better

designed websites and resources.

Absolutely.

And that's something, you know, it's
important to me that when we're talking

about accessibility, we really make sure
we continue to center, um, disability

as, you know, as a core part of why
accessibility, uh, is a thing, right?

Because we're creating products that
aren't accessible and that's affecting

the disability community, um, and
impacting their ability to work with,

uh, with those products, with those
services, whatever they might be.

That said, there is a lot around,
and there's a lot of people who

will talk about, and, and I have
certainly been one of them, that

accessibility is good for everybody.

Um, and so I always like to make sure
we don't lose track of the fact that

it, you know, I don't want to, you
know, sort of erase the fact that

the disability community is really
at the core of the work, but, or and,

accessibility is great for everybody.

And so earlier you were talking about,
um, social media, and You know, I'm

thinking of all of the different
social media platforms right now

that have captions that you can add.

You know, thinking about TikTok
videos, thinking about Instagram

videos, etc., and there are more.

Um, the fact that there are so many people
who add them, Now, maybe some of them are

adding them because they know it's helpful
for, um, you know, certain disability

populations, deaf, hard of hearing,
hearing loss, you know, cognitive, um,

other types of disabilities that benefit
from having those captions, but it also

benefits it perhaps language learners
of whatever that language may be, um,

to be able to see the text as they're,
as, as you're hearing the language.

Um, it also benefits, I mean, think
of you're on a bus going from your

home to your work or from, you know,
your dormitory to your classroom

building, whatever, wherever you're
going, uh, and you don't have your

headphones with you and you have your
phone on silent, but you're watching

the video and you can keep up because
there's captions there, whether or not

you identify as having a disability,
you're benefiting from those captions.

And so Um, there are a number of, so many
more examples, of course, we can, uh, talk

through, uh, or that, that I'm sure others
would, would think of as well, where

it's, it was specifically designed as,
as access, you know, assistive technology

or accessibility, however you want to
call it, um, but that it benefits others.

Um, and I think that's a really
important piece, um, to know that when.

You know, we hear this sometimes
when people are like, but I don't

have any, you know, students
with disabilities in my class.

So why would I do this
or whatever it might be?

Well, first of all, you
don't know that you don't.

Maybe they haven't disclosed that to you.

But also, It's just good, good
design or it's good, um, you

know, user experience to be able
to include some of these things.

Um, and it, it often doesn't take too
much effort to be able to add these

things, um, to what you're creating
and it, and it helps everybody.

Yeah, I, I, I agree.

I think it's, it's definitely one of
those things is things that, um, you

know, I, I like to think of it almost like
cooking, you know, like it, it's like the

special spice that it's so easy to have.

And then when you use it, you know,
it's, it's food just tastes better.

In general, why are we doing it?

And so I think it's more like how can
people get, and it's not expensive,

you know, so it's, it's, it's a, it's
a, um, it's something to, you know, to

be aware of, because I really believe
that it's not like, does it add an

additional cost to product development
as a product developer, I would say.

Yes, but there is a big but here,
but it keeps us more disciplined

in how we design our product.

So we got a better product
that comes out of it.

It's almost like it did some free
work for us to get our product better.

And so I don't know, like, maybe you
can look at a line item and say, well,

we needed, you know, something took
longer or whatever, you know, like I

had to hire additional headcounts to,
to make this work, but I think that

the product was better at the end.

I don't know whether I can really
sort of like justify like exactly how,

how much, how many percent better is
it worth that exact dollar amount.

But I would argue at least for me right
now, I wouldn't be able to go back to

not considering it because overall it
creates, there's a lot of other things

too, like for me, it literally go into
even recruiting, I wouldn't, if I hire...

So two things, right?

If I hire someone today who
doesn't care about it, I probably

wouldn't want to hire them.

But if I hire someone today who
cares about them and they see

that we don't care about it, they
wouldn't want to come work for us.

So it's kind of like, uh,
it's, uh, it exists in, in.

It permeates itself into every
layer of everything that we do.

Um, so I can't imagine it being like,
it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's not only

a great thing and it helps us in so
many ways, it's basically win, win, win,

win, win at every layer that we go to.

Right.

And like from the cost standpoint, and I
was trying to think as you were talking,

if there are specific examples I can
come up with or resources, they might,

they might occur to me in a minute.

Um, but in terms of the cost, sure.

Maybe there's a small cost or like you
said, maybe a harder to define cost if

it's about the, the, um, team that you
need to assemble or specific, whatever

it might be, um, a little extra time
to be able to make it accessible.

Okay.

But what we know is that what's
actually the most costly is if you

don't do that from the beginning, and
then you have something that you're

ready to ship software code, whatever
it might be an actual product, and

you haven't made it accessible.

Um, And you realize either right before,
that's what's costly because now you're

like, okay, do we ship it anyway, knowing
it's not accessible, which damages your

brand and means your user, like you
can't reach all of the users you possibly

can, um, because they can't access it.

They can't use the tool or, or
whatever it is we're talking about.

Um, or you say, okay, pause,
we aren't going to be able to.

put out this release or whatever
it might be, uh, because we

need to make it accessible.

Now that's costing you money because now
you're, you know, it's delaying, yeah,

all of the things that, that go into that.

And so, um, that's where I was saying, I
was trying to think of a specific example

or resource I could point you to, but
there is a lot out there that talks about

how The cost of accessibility is actually
when you don't make something accessible

and then have all of that associated,
um, stuff and activity around it versus,

okay, let's build it from the beginning.

Crucially, let's make sure that we're
including people with disabilities

through the entire process so that
it's not just, also a thing at the end,

it's from the beginning, all the way
through, you know, ideation, testing,

prototyping, all of those things,
depending on how you're creating products,

but, um, that's, that's really where
the cost comes in, um, is not doing it.

So, and, and by the way, some of these
sort of harder to to measured cost

is some of them are, you just can't,
you know, you, you can't even fathom,

you know, things like, because if it
affects, for example, the retention

of your own employees, that's right.

What, what's that cost.

That's an incredible cost.

You know, if your employee leaves
you because they go, I don't

want to work for an organization
where we don't care about this.

And when, uh, users ask us about it,
our, you know, decision maker just

simply said that's not going to be
part of, you know, what we do, right?

I can't live with it.

Right?

Like you said, everyone, even if they
are not themselves, have any, identify

with any disabilities, they know someone
who is, someone close to them is their

best friend, their family member.

That's right.

Right?

And their family members may not be
today, but they may be You know, as

they age and, you know, and so on,
they, you know, so it's, it affects

all of us and themselves too, right?

Absolutely.

For someone to like, you
know, to, to not have that.

I mean, the, the, the cost is
unmeasurable in my mind, you

know, the lot is unmeasurable.

Um, so I, I don't, I hope that people who,
who might listen to this will, will, will

agree that it's, it's not even a choice.

It's not a, well, maybe one
day we'll, we'll get to it.

Um, right.

It's, it's just something that, you
know, to me, it goes into, you know, it,

it becomes a, uh, you know, like before
everyone's aware, it's fine because we

just didn't know what we didn't know.

Now that we, we, I think when you
starting to get to a point, especially

with your help, you know, spreading the
word to, to everyone, it's going to get

to a point where it's not acceptable.

I think that's a world we want to live in.

Yes.

It's not acceptable.

You know, correct.

Here is a preview of what's coming up next
in Part 2 of my conversation with Kate

Sonka, Executive Director of Teach Access.

I mean, as students are putting
their work out there, um, being able

to demonstrate, hey, I know what
accessibility is, generally speaking,

and I've done a couple things to my
portfolio to make it more accessible.

That indicates a lot.

You know, they're thinking about
inclusivity, they're thinking about the

different ways they're presenting their
materials, um, and their artifacts,

uh, and their work to the world.