Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear part two
of my conversation with Sylvia Spears,

Provost and Vice President for Lifelong
Learning at College Unbound . More

links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

For episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations, Can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

I want people to understand who
are listening to this, right?

To understand that.

So, so what is in fact, you know,
a gathering, a class, a meal?

What, what is that at College
Unbound comparing to other places?

Because I think that people still have
this idea that going to college looks

a lot like there's some like massive
lecture hall and this professor deliver.

Really either, you know, if, if
you're watching a movie, you know,

it's Sir Anthony Hopkins having
delivered the greatest lecture, you

know, or Morgan Freeman having done
it, you know, or that it's something

that's like, okay, super boring.

It's just a bunch of
like PowerPoint slides.

It's someone just reading through.

Um, I, I think that people.

I wanted people to just paint a
picture of what does that look like?

What's the, what, what is, what does it
mean to come to a college unbound class?

How often do you come to this class
and why is there a meal beforehand?

And how do you structure all of that?

Cause I know it's very different.

I've been through all these and it's
just, it completely changed my mind.

It just blew my mind and changed my
mind about higher education, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

All students.

As they come into College Unbound,
come into a cohort, so a group

of no more than 10 students.

That class is called the
Lab, World and Workplace Lab.

And it is the place where
students meet once a week.

With a lab faculty member as a
facilitator and a guide, and they,

um, most, the vast majority of
those classes happen face to face.

So they come, um, we spend
time together in community.

There's announcements, there's brags,
there's what's happening in the world.

Occasionally a student will get up
and Say I'd like to share something

and they share a spoken word piece.

They share a song.

They share that they, their daughter
just graduated from, from high school.

Uh, so it's really community based time.

And that breaking bread is not
just, Oh, we have to feed people

because they're coming from work.

It's intentional because it sets the tone
for a particular way of being together.

It also means that people
have a time to pause.

before they transition into,
um, into their lab class.

And so people pause, um, and
laugh and joke and, um, reconnect

with one another after a week.

And then they go into their, the lab.

And the lab is a place where
students make meaning of all of the

other classes that they're having.

And so a typical semester is
a, um, uh, a lab for 16 weeks.

And then, um, What we call instructional
courses are eight weeks in duration.

And so the instructional courses are
delivered synchronously or asynchronously

online, but the lab is the home base.

And in the lab, students are
really developing and cultivating

a project that they care about,
a community based project.

And the projects can range from
somebody who decides they want

to launch a mentoring program
for African American males.

Or they want to, um, create an
after school program, um, for

students with special needs.

Or they want to do advocacy
around housing at the Statehouse.

So the projects come
from students interests.

And that is what's cultivated and
developed in the course of the lab over

the time that the students are at CU.

To make what the being in class feels
like I'll share a little bit about

a course I'm teaching right now.

There's, um, there's one major,
Organizational Leadership and Change.

And every student is connected in that
major because they're drawn to CU not only

because they want a degree, but because
they want to create change in the world.

So one of the required
courses is Reframing Failure.

We meet on Thursday evenings online.

It's synchronously, so I get to
see their faces, which is great.

And, um, it's very much problem
posing, education, and inquiry based.

So, a recent assignment, as an example,
was, or discussion, was asking students

to think about Biggest failure they think
they've had in their lives, and they, they

do, you know, some folks it was things
like dropping out of school, you know,

at 16, or making a mistake that ended
them with a period of incarceration,

not intervening with a child that
they have that was abusing drugs.

Um, you know, real, real
life stuff, hard stuff.

We don't ask them to say those
things just because we want them

to be in the depth of despair.

We have that as part of the class so
that they can re evaluate why they

think those things were a failure.

Were they really a failure or
was it a set of circumstances?

And that some that they couldn't control
and some that they couldn't control.

And then we start to unpack.

Where do the messages come
from about what's a failure?

You know, someone would
say, I didn't go to college.

I could have gone to college and I didn't.

That's a failure.

And I'll say to them, You're
in college and you're going

to graduate in two semesters.

Is it still a failure?

And then on their own, they start
to develop an understanding of the

many, many things they learned from
that failure, the insights that they

gained, the person that they became.

And sometimes they even
realize Wait a minute.

Yeah, there were some, um,
things that they regret, but

maybe it wasn't a failure.

It was a step on the way to
something that was better.

And so, that's just an example
of a conversation in a course

called Reframing Failure.

Imagine courses around leadership and
change, around, um, organizational

studies and understanding
how organizations function.

It's designed to give them all of
the skills, knowledge, and expertise,

um, to enact the kind of change
they want to see in the world.

It, it's, it's so amazing to hear
about these courses and experience.

These are the kind of
courses that it feels like.

It feels like a, it feels like
a very meaningful, fun, and

worthwhile learning experience.

It does not feel like the kind of things
where you go, Oh yeah, I got class.

Oh, I got a paper due tomorrow.

Oh, I got a final.

You know how it is, right?

Yeah.

I think these are the types of
things that I can see your student,

and I have seen your students.

They don't just go in, And
they're not going in thinking,

Oh, man, I have to do this.

It's more like, I get to do this.

It's a really different, it just
come from a really different place.

I also want to talk a little bit
about maybe a couple of things

that you had, you had said.

It's about doing the, you know, the labs,
they're doing these projects together.

I want to talk about the role
of the institution for a moment.

And maybe even somewhat of a.

Well, it's by design, really, but it's
also a product of the institution,

the impact of an institution.

I think sometimes we don't talk about that
a lot, and we can reframe that, you know,

we can look at it in every institution.

I've been involved in
many institutions as well.

What do the communities think of them?

Are they bringing in

knowledge, people, economy, you
know, are they bettering the,

the, the community in some ways?

And sometimes they're not.

You had mentioned very early on that
at least one of the institutions in

your home state sits on native land,

you know, there.

I'm not, I I, I don't think you
were even saying, well, whether the

institution is a good institution.

It's just a very fact that at some point.

A large group of people were displaced
because of the institution, right?

But College Unbound
doesn't work like that.

In fact, in your very design, your
students, you said, we have cohorts, a

class of 10 ish, you know, students in, in
each of these groups, and there are many,

many groups, and each student developed,
A project based on the passion that

does something to better the community.

So even, even if we
take one single cohort,

you would have done 10 things to your
community to better that community.

Whether like you said, it's an after
school program, whether it's a, I

talked to Jose Rodriguez who started
a free Haircut service for kids.

I talked to, um, one of your, one of
your alum who I was so amazed by it.

She, she created a, um, swim less
free swim lessons for, um, kids who.

don't typically get the
privilege to have swim lessons.

So they will lack a major
skill, literal survival skill.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, so your students are out there.

Not only are they learning and
gaining, gaining skills, by the

way, in, I really, truly believe in
deeper, faster, more impactful ways.

They really are better learners.

It's just, it's almost like saying.

Yeah.

It's the more efficient way to
learn through that experience.

It's, it beats them
reading, you know, 10 books.

It just does because it, you know,
they're not thinking about the

theories and what the hypotheticals
they have to solve the problem.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Because there are real lives at stake that
they have to figure out how to do this.

That's right.

And And, but they are making all
these difference in communities, just

as a, you can call it by product.

I think it's by design.

Yeah, it is of your institution, you know,
and people are learning at the same time.

I mean, there is so many wins here
that I'm just looking at this.

I'm going.

Oh my god, we've, traditionally,
we get some wins, but we

get mostly losses, you know?

Yeah, yeah, that's so true.

And the fact that you have to
occupy the city and the campus

and building, you know, buildings
for classrooms and administration.

College Unbound doesn't do that.

Nope.

Right.

It's amazing.

And the fact that you can do that
allows you to be nimble and flexible.

You can go into communities
and serve it as they need to.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And deliver the, the, the program, the
education in the context of community.

So even now in Rhode Island, um, we make
use of the, um, The Met School facilities

We don't have our facilities, which
means we don't have all of that overhead.

Our, um, dollars are spent on delivery
of the program to students and supporting

those students to be successful.

And we also have, um, Um, two cohorts
of people, uh, in Central Falls in Rhode

Island, in Woonsocket in Rhode Island,
in Newport in Rhode Island, um, in

Philadelphia, uh, in, uh, Camden, and
so where a partnership or a relationship

grows with a Community based organization.

If they say, oh, we've got, you know,
folks who are interested in getting their

degree and it seems like a good fit, an
organization can say, yeah, and when we

close at five o'clock, the cohort can
meet in the, in our conference room.

Then it makes it easier for employees.

They don't have to go anywhere.

They just switch, they get some food,
and they begin their evening for class.

So, we're in community
and we're of community.

And so what's interesting, there is
no, you know, in traditional settings,

there's the town gown relationship.

The college and the community.

We know sometimes those relationships
can be really contentious or it can

even be that the college has come in and
swooped up land and some people would

say, Oh, they, um, developed an area.

Other people would say they
gentrified an area and pushed

out folks in that community.

Uh, another college I worked at just
before, um, College Unbound, beautiful

community, beautiful college, expanding
college, right on the Boston Common.

Okay, that's great.

Yeah, you know, if you were 18 years
old, wouldn't you want to go to a college

where your view is on the Boston Common?

But as the college spread back, it
also displaced folks in Chinatown.

And so, That is often the
story of colleges, and College

Unbound, uh, intentionally
seeks to be in and of community.

If you go to, um, events in the City of
Providence that are trying to create a

better city, a better lived experience
for the residents of the Providence

area, you'll see on committees, in
the audience, um, leading discussions,

advocating for change, Just like a sea of
College Unbound students, whether they're

alums or previous students or folks who
are alums who now work in City Hall.

They are just in the community and
shaping change in, in their circles

that seem to be ever expanding.

And so you're right, there is this, um,
kind of magical, you know, You know,

stones in a pond, you know, you throw a
stone and the ripples just keep going.

So every cohort, 10 stones, uh, that
are creating change in the world.

It's amazing.

Cause I, I, I, I sometimes think
that, and in fact, these literal, I

mean, I don't know whether they're
competitions or ranking or whatever,

you know, you call them really exist.

Most beautiful campuses
in the United States.

Right.

And I, I, I can see how Um, enamored
one can be when you step foot on

a campus and it's got, you know,
the grand, um, you know, campus.

And I, I don't want to name names
because they're really beautiful campus.

And you, you're like,
wow, I belong to this,

this

space.

But at the same time, I don't
think that, I think that it's.

Crazy that an institution is judged
by the square footage that they have.

Yeah.

Right.

As opposed to the impact that
have on that community itself.

Right.

So it's almost like this kind of idea of
ownership of square footage or whatever.

At some point, I think it was,
it was really for a real purpose.

You know, I, you know, we need
a place to convene and whatnot.

But.

They became extremely permanent and those
things drive one thing, drive another.

Now you have to hire people
to do that, to maintain them.

And, and then there's the cost.

And when we think about sort of
problems of higher education, I

think cost and affordability is
definitely one of the things.

And like what you have just shown
and proven to us that you can get an

actual better space, more convenient
space for those who actually are

attending this school, um, for.

A fraction of the cost.

By the way, there is cost to what you do.

Yeah.

Because you know what you do?

You spend money on
providing meals to them.

You spend money on providing
child care for those who

actually come to attend school.

You don't get to go to Dartmouth
and come to class and say

like, here, here is my kid.

Can you drop him off for this?

You don't get to do that.

No.

And you should, given that
money that you're paying.

Um, and so I think that's, that's a, it's,
it's, it's just really, really smart.

I think that you've really done so much
of that re imagining higher education that

it really, it's, it's, it's subtle in the
smallest details, kind of like what you're

saying, breaking bread isn't just to,
yes, on one hand, we want to feed them.

We want them to have the energy to, to, to
carry on after a day of work and all that.

But it's also a pause and also
a time to reflect and reset.

I just love all these really smart,
in a way it seems simple, but like

amazing solutions often seem simple
once you've come up with them.

And I think that that's, that's
what you've done at College Unbound.

I think it's really amazing.

Um, can I talk a little bit more about
this sort of relationship building?

I think that there is a, um, one could
also say, Hey, I attended a school.

I had great relationships
with my classmates.

A lot of times they develop that
relationship, maybe at a fraternity or

in a dorm room, or maybe through clubs,
athletics, you know, what have you.

I actually have found that many of
them, they do have relationships.

I don't want to say they don't, but the
relationship is not very deep when it

comes to the academic side of the house.

So if you took a math class together or
writing class together, actually in many

places, and I, this is not the case in
all, all places, in fact, we work with

a lot of schools at Digication, very
privileged to do so where they, they do

a lot of sharing by the nature of their
work, but in many traditional classrooms.

Actually, you don't even
know what the next person is

writing in that writing class.

In fact, you're not allowed to share.

You're not encouraged to share.

Sometimes you're not
allowed to share, right?

Because it's like, it's, it's like
the, you know, like this is my stuff.

This is your stuff.

So actually, No one ever, like, people
don't get to learn from each other very

much, and I, I know that that's not
the case in all classrooms, you know,

I know that, you know, that's not the
case, you know, in fact, that's very

much what I try to help people do as
well, you know, using, you know, our, our

platform, but, but at College Unbound,
when you talked about this cohort of

people, I want people to realize that
In those, you said 16 weeks in the lab?

Mm hmm.

In those 16 weeks, Each person is coming
up with these projects and their passion,

and they are telling each other every
single week, what their progress is,

what their hurdles are, what's going
on, you know, what are the changes, you

know, if they had to change an idea and
then they all have each other's back by

giving each other feedback and responses
in, in a way that, and I, I love this

because You have 10 students in there.

They are not doing one project.

They're doing one of their own
project and nine of the other

people's projects at the same time.

You get invested into them, right?

If someone is doing that after
school program, you're not

doing the after school program.

Someone else is doing the after
school program and you get to You

thought of something, you'd help them.

You

know someone in a school who might
be a good point, a contact person

to start the absence school program.

You make the connections for them, right?

You become each other's support structure.

So when you're talking about
relationship is different from that

of People thinking, well, these are
my college buddies relationship.

Absolutely.

These are people that you went to do
extraordinary work together and you

respect and understand each other, both
at an intellectual level, but also at

the, at a very deep, um, sort of the
deep respect to the people's core values.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's different in my mind than just
saying, you know, It's sort of like

your, you know, um, uh, uh, buddy
for going to football games together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because the, um, the, the, the kind of
personal experience and the academic

experience are are connected, as opposed
to, oh, my social and personal life

happens only outside of the classroom.

It's, it's, they're all, they're the same.

People aren't leaving themselves,
part of themselves at the

door when they come into lab.

And they're in that lab for 16
weeks of every semester that

they're enrolled at College Unbound.

So they're with those same folks
through the whole experience.

And when they graduate.

It's, they talk about each
other as extended family.

They're no longer just a peer in a,
in a, oh yeah, we went to college.

They are tight and when, you know,
somebody from the cohort walks

across the stage at commencement,
I don't know who's louder.

Is it the family in the back who's
louder or is it that cohort who's just

screaming their heart out and with tears
and high fives and hugs and it, it is.

The celebration of one.

is the celebration of the whole.

And so there's something really,
really powerful in the relationships

that are formed in the lab.

They are, as you noted, supporting
each other, talking about each

other, giving each other feedback.

So there's all of the stuff that's
related to the, the learning.

And then They're even kind of giving
a hand up when something goes wrong.

So somebody's car breaks down and
they, they write to their cohort, uh,

you know, in Snapchat and say, I'm
not going to make it to class tonight.

My car is broken.

10 minutes later,
somebody is like, hold on.

Nope, we're not doing that.

I'll come get you.

Give me your address.

And next thing you know,
that student's in class.

Um, that's how they
have each other's backs.

And there's some formal things that
we do to, to also support that.

So, based on the project, every student
develops a personal learning network.

So, four or five people.

That they believe have wisdom,
expertise, experience that's going

to help them with their project.

Somebody that they can, um,
be in touch with informally or

formally to advance their project.

So every student has a personal learning
network that they've identified.

Which means the, you know,
the value of relationships.

in CU's educational model is
probably the highest priority.

And it's so consistent with some of the
values that we have around learning and

how learning happens, how it happens best
is always in, in the context of community.

And so we do a lot to cultivate, um,
both spontaneous as well as intentional.

Moments for people to be in
relationship with one another.

And that's, that's where the
best learning comes from.

So, I mean, I think that at this point,
if people are listening to this, at

this point, you're thinking, this is
an amazing, beautiful, magical college.

It must cost a hundred-K,
twenty-K to attend.

No,

Sylvia, what is, how much, how
much does this whole thing cost?

I mean, it's high touch, small classes.

You're providing.

Food and childcare.

How, I mean, and then you were talking
about this population of people who may

not, shouldn't have been able to afford
college, how there's some, there's an

imbalance here, you know, like how, how
much is this thing going to cost them?

Uh, it's, uh, about 10, 000 a year.

10, 000 a year and they
have to do it for six years?

No, most students, it's two years.

Two years?

Maybe two and a half at the most.

To get a bachelor's

degree.

Yeah, because many of them have,
they're coming with credits or they

have lived experience that is, um,
valuable experience that can be

reviewed through portfolio for credit.

And so we take the experience if somebody
was a caregiver of an elderly parent and

as part of that process had to understand
medicines and all kinds of health

related activities and really can provide
evidence of deep learning around health

and well being and, uh, all of that.

They, they may submit a portfolio that
reflects on that learning that provides

evidence of that learning and then they
actually can receive credit for learning.

So, you can't be somebody who's
lived in the world and at your 35,

40 years old and you and not have
learned deep skills and knowledge

and so we value that, that knowledge.

And so somebody might come in and they
might have 20 credits from community

college, but they might do portfolios
and give themselves a bump and then

do the major and then do additional
credits so that it's around two years.

Um, there have been a handful
of mighty people who have

done it in a year in a summer.

And got their bachelor's degree.

It's, it's amazing.

Just, just to describe to folks,
these are people who traditional

college might have failed them.

The society, the community in which
they live in may have failed them.

And that they are stuck in a space, in a,
in, in, in a, in a, in a phase of their

lives where they literally are stuck.

They, they don't have a
way to go and get a degree.

If they could get a degree, they
might've gotten a better job.

You know, better pay or better outcome
in, you know, the current, you know, the

job and a career, but they couldn't do it.

They couldn't, they
couldn't have the ability.

They don't have the ability
to go back to school to do it.

Now one could say, well, they
could go to community college

and do it and sort of part time.

And so there are actually
other opportunities to do

things part time as well.

Right.

But these are schools that are not
designed to help people like them.

Actually, that's most people, right?

They're not designed to help
most people's real lives.

They're, you know, they're
designed for people who are

willing to sacrifice so much.

Of what life really should be, should
be for them in order to get that degree.

The sacrifice, the sacrificing
sometimes is too much.

Maybe it's in the, in the, in the,
you know, um, um, for someone who's,

uh, who has young children, for
example, just couldn't do it, right?

So they're stuck in the part of the
face of their life where there's no no

possible forward movement in bettering
themselves, or at least that's how it

is.

And that they can come to College
Unbound, first of all, is much,

much, much less expensive.

But second, is that they could do, they
could actually obtain an accredited

4 year bachelor's degree, what's
traditionally a 4 year bachelor's degree.

In, in some cases, a year and
a bit, but most of the time,

two, two and a half years.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that degree is accessible because
of how the, the curricular model

is delivered, that it's relevant
to the work that they're doing.

So it's not like, Oh, I have to stop
doing what I'm doing to go to college.

It actually feeds into the
work that they're doing.

So many people, even before they
graduate, will be recognized by their

employers and move into other roles.

Um, for some students, they graduate
and, um, as soon as they can, show that

diploma, they're promoted, you know,
a 15, 000 or 20, 000 bump is, is real.

That's something that can materially
change the experience of, of students.

And if you can change the, the experience
of a mother who's raising kids on

her own, or a dad who's out there
struggling, or somebody who's in a multi

generational household, you can change
the trajectory of that entire family.

And so that's why CU is committed
to removing barriers, um, and as

many barriers as we can so folks
can just do the work that they need

to do, um, to advance their lives
and to make change in the world.

And I have to say, There are days
when it feels like a really magical

place, especially when you're hanging
out with students and the work

behind the scenes to ensure that
we don't unintentionally replicate

the stuff that's in higher ed.

The traditional things in higher ed is
real work, um, because all of us, whether

we've been higher ed professionals
or community, uh, worked in community

organizations, all of us as a staff and
faculty have been acculturated, socialized

into a different model of education.

Yeah,

and we're committed to learning
from traditional higher

education, but not replicating it.

And so how we're always in the
process of becoming, always in the

process of innovating, of asking
ourselves, why are we doing this?

Uh, is it going to build relationships?

Is it going to advance equity?

Is it, um, you know, replication
just for the sake of replication?

Is it meeting the needs of our students?

Is the student voice actually
fundamental to our decision making?

And if it's not, if we answer no to any of
those things, then we need to take a pause

before we do anything because we don't
want to replicate or to become the very

thing that we're trying to work against.

That's amazing, Sylvia.

I, I was going to ask you, but I think
you actually pre answered that question,

which was, you know, if I was, if I'm
listening to this, I'm, I'm an admin,

I'm a dean and an administrator.

I'm someone with the power to change,
to make significant impact in my

current institution that is not CU,
and maybe we suffer from some of

the things that we had talked about.

Mm hmm.

Maybe I didn't even realize
we were suffering from it

until you talked about it.

We thought those are good things, but
now I realize, oh, hold on a minute.

Um, you know, I, I think that
you gave people so much hope, but

also a practical real example, a
model, a roadmap to say, Hey, look,

acknowledge some of these things
that, that may not be, you know, we

sometimes have metrics in our lives,
you know, that, that were given to

us that didn't have a good, they
weren't good metrics to begin with.

And yet, because they were the ones
given to us, we take that as, you The

effect, and sometimes they're not,
and we have to reexamine those things.

And I think all those things that
you just talked about give people,

um, maybe a starting point, right?

Yeah.

You think, do you believe that,
do you believe that there is.

What is your magic wand?

Not magic wand overnight.

I think magic wand overnight doesn't work.

I think that's just, you know, that's just
silly, but magic wand in 30 years, Sylvia,

a 30 year long magic wand, you get to,
Do the wand, but it doesn't come true.

It's going to take small parts every day
for the next 30 years for it to come true.

What does that magic wand looks
like for higher education for you?

Wow.

I love that question.

Um, I think it would look like, um, not
that colleges there'd be, um, more CUs or

colleges would look more like CU, but CU.

The model that CU uses would be, um,
already a thing of the past because

we would have actually developed the
next level of innovation that, that,

um, that the basis of CU in, in 10
years is in colleges already and that

colleges are creating the next iteration
of what it means to meet the needs

of students because it's not static.

The needs of students will change.

Barriers will change and how do we
ensure that every college, every

community is actually dismantling
the things that do not serve students

and building the things that do.

And so, I'm looking for what's the next
innovation that springs out of CU and all

of the CU like institutions or all of the
CU like communities of practice within

institutions that then actually have a
very different landscape for higher ed.

That it all looks different.

And, um, things like Relationship
and relevance are embedded

fully in every college, every
institution across the country.

And that people actually have
access, that they're, that they

are more of community, uh, and
less set aside on a hill somewhere.

What a beautiful, beautiful vision.

I can't think of a better time to, to end
our conversation, but to leave everyone

here listening, think about that, ponder.

And maybe I don't, we don't usually do
this at these conversations, but I think

this is a point for people to think about,
well, what, what are some things that

you can do in your community to, if you
agree with what Sylvia is saying to, to,

to help that become a reality, because
I think that is a beautiful, beautiful,

um, sounds like a magical place to be.

And I think that, you know,
if people are willing to.

Put in some work into
going towards that goal.

I think I, I really think that is it's,
it's, it's a realistic goal, um, that

one could have, it's not magic wand in
that it's just potion and pixie dust.

I think it's.

I think that you are, you are
starting there and you are doing it.

And I think with, you know, with
more people knowing about this, um,

it could really be a reality and
I'm so glad to be in the beginning

of these conversations with you.

Only 14 years in, in, in, in, in
establishment and, but, but the, but some

of the most amazing discoveries today.

I hope that everyone enjoyed this,
um, this conversation with Sylvia.

Thank you, Sylvia, so much for
being, um, sharing your insights.

I, I, I love this and I hope that
we continue this conversation.

It's been a pleasure.

Take care, Sylvia.

You too.

Coming up next, we'll be chatting with
Matthew Street, senior lecturer in

Spanish at the University of Virginia.

Here's a quick preview

and just encourage them to, to start
creating with the language, like you

mentioned, like you mentioned earlier.

You know, I want the students
to, to be comfortable.

My job there is to kind of gently
push students towards things and

encourage them to organize on their own.