Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear part
one of my conversation with Sylvia

Spears, Provost and Vice President for
Lifelong Learning at College Unbound.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host Jeff Yan.

My guest today is Sylvia Spears,
Provost and Vice President for

Lifelong Learning at College Unbound.

Hello, Sylvia.

Good morning.

How are you?

Good, good.

I love your, I love your energy.

You know, um, first of all, Sylvia, I've
been such a big fan of College Unbound.

I think that you've, you've, I think
you know at this point because I, I

keep showing up to, to your events
and to, to, to, to your campus and

then to all, to your locations.

Um, I, I, um, I want to
share really quickly.

To people, um, with, with listeners, uh,
how I first met you in person, I don't,

you wouldn't, you may not remember this.

It was actually last fall at
a, I think I met you before

online, but never in person.

Um, and last fall you were
hosting a, um, um, a session at

an amazing, um, conference, um,
called, um, Imagining America.

Um, And, uh, you hosted a session, um,
and it was also early in the morning.

I think it was getting an 8 AM session.

And, um, and a lot of people were packing
this room and, uh, it was at a local,

it was located at a local high school
and, um, and it was, we were packed in

this room, sitting in this, you know,
giant circle kind of, and, uh, you had.

Um, music playing.

It was John Batiste, Drink Water.

I, I, I remember every bit of this.

And I was sitting in one of the
corners and you were just dancing

in the middle of this room.

And we were all sort of waiting
for the session to start.

And, and it was just like, wow, she's,
she's this super energetic lady.

And, and just, she, you know, It's just
enjoying life and it was infectious.

And all of us were just starting to
like, man, we want to get up and dance.

And then you're like, get up and dance.

You can't stop it.

You have to move.

Your body wants to move, move.

And we all started getting up
and dancing and it was 8am.

There was no coffee needed.

It was amazing.

And that was my.

Very first impression of you, Sylvia.

Wow.

That's amazing.

Um, thank you for, for just reflecting
on that moment because it was fun.

And, um, you know, conferences can
be really meaningful and great.

And, you know, there's the transmission
of lots of interesting insights and ideas.

And at eight o'clock in the morning.

It's kind of a little bit of judgery to
get to a conference session, and we all

know that you can walk into a conference
session and it can be the driest, most

boring, almost painful experience,
and if you're stuck in a room that's

crowded, you know you can't escape.

And so for me, how people come into a
space, is really important because it sets

the tone for the journey we're about to
go on in any workshop or in a classroom.

Um, and so, I, I felt like dancing.

It seemed like it was a good day.

John Baptiste, that song, Drink
Water, is one of my favorite songs.

And, uh, it seemed like
a good time to dance.

And, uh, I think it, Help people to
both be in their bodies and be ready

for whatever we were going to do,
uh, together, uh, in a dynamic mode.

So, uh, thanks so much for, for just
remembering that, uh, that moment.

Uh, well, I also want to thank you
that you also did, you know, and lift

up to the, to the, to the opening, all
the way through your session, because

you did not then spend, um, 20 minutes
telling us about, you know, like a

really long bio of both you and your
institution, but we went straight into it.

And by the way, the conversation was about
how can we reimagine higher education?

And I think it was really, I
mean, it was really apt way for

us to think about it because.

And just so people know, you are
the provost at College Unbound.

Yes, indeed.

There are people who are listening to
this right now who might be, um, high

school students, who might be people
who, um, who are not familiar with,

you know, What the heck is a provost?

What's a provost at a college and
tell us a little bit about what a

provost is and, and what is what is
college unbound in your role there.

And then we'll, we'll start there.

And then we'd love to dig deeper
into how you come to be Sylvia.

Okay.

Um, perhaps I'll start with.

College Unbound because being
provost at College Unbound could

be a little different than being
provost at a traditional college.

And you're right.

Um, so College Unbound, uh, is indeed
an accredited colleges for people who,

uh, for whom that's really important.

Um, it's a college that is young.

It's about 14 years old.

Um, Co founded by Dennis Litke, who is
a high school educator, principal, and

the founder of a whole group of schools.

I think there's more than 150
high schools in that network now.

And Adam Bush, who is an incredible
educator, jazz historian, social justice

advocate, just a Wonderful human being.

So they founded a school, um, and
over time it's involved into a school

specifically designed to, um, one,
reinvent higher education so that it

actually meets the needs of all students.

Um, two, to ensure that there's access
to education, um, For students who are

typically marginalized from education, who
are on the edges of education, who have

had negative experiences in education.

And so, so much of our work is
around helping people fulfill

their dreams of obtaining a degree.

And not just for the purpose of getting
a degree, but a degree that allows

them to create change in their own
lives, change for their families,

and change for their communities.

So, it's this.

that functions in a way that's very
different from a traditional college.

We value student learning that
happens outside of the classroom.

We value the lived experience of
individuals and communities and credit

that experience, uh, without a lot of
hoops, um, but with a sense of, um,

Reflection and quality around what
was the nature of their experience

and the college is just grounded in
an environment of deep relationship

with people and a community of care,
a cohort based model, uh, projects.

That, um, students do over the
course of their time at CU where they

develop projects, cultivate them, and
many of them implement afterwards.

So if I were to, um, think about how to
capture CU in a nutshell, I would say it's

a, a college committed to relationship.

Relevance of the curriculum to the
students who go to school with us

and rigor that it's academically, um,
challenging and meaningful to students.

At CU, the provost is, um,
responsible for and facilitating and

supporting all of the life of the
college that's related to learning.

So all of the things that are,
what's the array of courses?

Who's teaching?

What does teaching look like?

Is it the kind of teaching where a faculty
member walks into a room with old yellow

lined, um, pad of paper, you remember
those professors who did that, and reads

the same notes semester after semester?

That's not CU.

At CU, education is dynamic, it's
lots of discussion, uh, lots of, uh,

connecting theory to practice, to lived
experience, and so I have the, the

joy, the honor of working with faculty
and staff and students to create a

robust learning environment in which
students can thrive rather than survive.

In my career, I've watched students
at all kinds of institutions, public

institutions, private institutions,
Ivy League institutions, come to

campus with all kinds of aspirations,
and some can be highly successful.

And I've also watched some students
come to those campuses, and actually

I watched the light go out of their
eyes, and they either disappear, or

they graduate, but they graduate not
because of what the college did for them.

They graduate in spite of the college.

And so I've spent my entire career
working in traditional educational

spaces, trying to ensure that we can
create an environment that creates less

harm and actually supports students.

And then I found CU.

For years, I was saying, I don't
know if you can change institutions.

Can you change them from the inside out?

Or are you tinkering on
the edges of a college?

And even at my last institution, I
said to my team, my staff, my kindreds,

I have to say, you know, we would
sit in deep discussion sometimes

and think, You can't change them.

You can reduce harm, but
you can't change them.

And one of the folks on my team said,
Sylvia, we have to build a college.

You have to start your own college.

And the good news is I didn't
have to start my own college

because Adam and Dennis had
already started College Unbound.

And it is unbound.

That's not just a throwaway
part of our title.

It's embedded in everything we do
to try to unbind it, to loosen it,

to make it an innovative space where
students can come in and really

be them best, their best selves.

They're the magic.

They're already talented.

They already have expertise.

I, I love this, Sylvia.

And I, I think everyone can hear the
passion that comes from just your voice.

You know, it's, it's, it's so awesome.

Um, there is something that you were,
you know, you were talking about the

yellow line paper, you know, sort of,
I think that there is a lot of people

who have, I would, I would say even the,
you know, like many people considered,

you know, If you go to someone who's
been out of school for 20 years, maybe a

parent, the idea of education is about.

Acquiring more content.

It's a content acquisition exercise and
that the professor has a lot of content.

It's almost like they have a lot of
products that you need and they're

just gonna sell it to you and they'll,
they'll, they'll, you're supposed

to just transfer that content to
your, from their head to your head

and then, and then you're educated.

And, and that seems to be in my mind,
always have this almost like this, like

almost cartoonish, you know, like all that
they want to do is to say, I have all this

content that someone transferred to me
and now I'm going to transfer it to you.

And I, you just keep
passing it on as education.

But when I hear about how
you talk about education.

It's just not that at all.

It's actually about each
person going out to live.

They go dance, they go enjoy themselves.

They go solve problems in the community.

They go and be friends
with another person.

They go and help another person.

They go in and, um, be the, be the,
be the daughter or the son that they

should be for their, for their parents.

And by doing so, by
those lived experience.

Themselves, you learn and become, um,
educated and that's a really different

model of thinking about education.

I'm by the way, clearly on your camp.

I think I too, I don't, I think I was
like fairly good at being a student.

I never enjoyed it.

I would say that I probably, I grew up
in Hong Kong, um, when I was a kid and,

um, I, I felt like there was like a huge
amount of education trauma, you know,

just like, like you literally have to do
this or you, you literally get physically

beatings for not doing something.

Could be from your teacher, by the way.

Um, it's a, it's a, it's a,
it's, it's crazy in my mind.

Right.

But it's all about like,
they gave you the content.

Why don't you know it already?

Right.

And if you don't know it, maybe beating
you will somehow get you to know it.

Now you know, right?

So it's completely, so like from
that, like, you know, for me,

then I, I sort of learned to be
a good enough student, right?

But that kind of education
never really, in my mind, never

really benefited me very much.

It always feels like it's the kind of
thing where They're supposed to give you

all this content and somehow you know
how to reflect on them and internalize

them and turn it into your own experience
and that's when you learn, but you just

go, well, why don't we just bypass that?

Why don't we just go
straight into the experience?

Right?

Yeah.

I think that sounds so lovely.

Yeah, and, and, you know, there's
all, everything we know, everything

educators know about learning.

And so we've got the people who
study the brain, we've got people

who study cognition, we've got study,
people who study the acquisition of

information, all of that research.

Tells us that that kind of education,
that traditional model of education,

where we're depositing content
into people's brain does not work.

It means, yeah, you can
recite that information back.

And then, maaan!, you know, a
day or two after you took that

quiz or did that test, it's gone.

It's not yours.

It was a temporary visitor that
came and went, and if it's not

relevant to you, you let it go.

Um, one of the most powerful readings
for me when I was, um, uh, in my own

educational journey was reading Paulo
Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed.

And, uh, I think it's in the first
chapter, Frere talks about the, the

banking method of education and really
just, um, dismantles the notion that

that kind of education actually is
useful, meaningful, has long term, um,

you know, value and talked about how
important it is to be with students

in community and unveil reality.

People's lived reality in the context
of new material, new ideas, and that's

something people construct together.

Um, and, and so for me, it's just
the space of College Unbound is

exactly the opposite of that.

Um, we don't even like to use words
like teachers and instructors.

Um, you know, our accrediting agencies
think that's important, but we're,

We think about facilitators, and
conveners, and supporters, and guides,

and how we can create a learning
environment that's co created together

in community with students and teachers.

And it's out of that kind of relationship,
that space, that learning occurs.

Not just learning for students,
It's reciprocal in that it's

learning for instructors, um,
and folks who are teaching.

Um, and those moments that happen together
in a class or in a cohort or in community

time breaking bread together, um, are
distinct and magic all of their own.

And then you just, just watch them grow.

Uh, and so it's really
quite, uh, quite beautiful.

It is how education should always be.

No matter the age of the student, from
little people to folks who might be in

their 60s and 70s going back to college.

I love that Sylvia.

Sylvia, I, I think that we will definitely
circle back to some of the magical parts

of College Unbound, but first I wanted
to maybe go Deeper into your own history.

Sure.

Because I'm just fascinated
how, how does Sylvia come to be?

Where, where did you grow up?

What is the journey that
leads you to this point?

I mean, you, like you said, you were in
many different kinds of institutions.

So for people that just think, well, you
know, this, Very like, um, you know, this

really just this person just out there
talking about reinventing education.

She, she may or may not know
what education is supposed to be.

You know, I think that's not true.

You've been through a lot
of different models as well.

I think it's.

Through that perspective that
you can find these models that

you can really make comparison.

So why don't you tell us, give us
a little insights to, to, you know,

your, your upbringing and what,
what made you the way you are?

Yeah.

Wow.

I think my, uh, my kids probably
would have an interesting insight

on that, uh, or, you know,
uh, my parents rest in peace.

Um, but, uh, I grew up, um.

In Rhode Island, by the ocean, uh, I, uh,
love the environment of being near water.

Um, for me, it's just,
um, helps me to breathe.

As a matter of fact, already
this morning, I did a 45 minute

walk, uh, By the, by the ocean.

And so there's something about the ocean
that, um, even growing up reminds me of

the vastness of the world that I can't,
you know, I just look to the horizon.

So there's something grounding
about that, which always has me

as a, as kind of a disparate.

of my personality, looking
out, looking far, looking past

what is, to what might be.

Um, and so I grew up in this area,
went to, you know, your local public

school here in town, and early, like in
second grade, had a really interesting

experience here that I, now reflect on
as having shaped a lot of my experiences

in education and why I ended up in
education, to be perfectly honest.

Um, I was painfully shy as a little
kid, like really, really shy.

Um, you know, visitors would come to see
my parents and I'd run upstairs and sit

at the top of the stairs and just listen.

You know, I wouldn't come downstairs.

I don't want to see them.

Um, so I was painfully shy.

And in school, I was really shy, and
so I was quiet, um, and my mother was

called to a parent teacher meeting,
and if you can imagine back in the day,

those meetings were really kind of an
exercise of power, uh, for some teachers,

um, where they made parents feel small.

And my mother might have been five feet
tall, but she was not small in, in,

uh, Kind of personality and stature.

Um, she was a mighty tiny woman.

Anyhow, this particular teacher
said something like, um, Sylvia

is very smart, but she's lazy.

And I remember sitting out, I was
sitting in a tiny chair outside of that

door to that classroom and I heard it.

And even though, you know, you're a
little kid at, you know, in the second

grade, I remember the feeling of hurt.

I, I, I wasn't lazy.

I was Paralyzed with fear because
the environment was so uncomfortable.

My mother, of course, also
taught me about advocacy.

She left that meeting, took my hand,
went straight down to the principal's

office, explained that interaction
and talked about no to Teacher should

ever think any child is lazy and,
um, I was immediately removed from

that class, put in a different class.

The environment was supportive and
warm and friendly and, and I was

happy, did great and apparently
I wasn't late, late, lazy.

Um, the interesting thing is.

Decades later, when I went back to
get my doctorate, uh, in education, in

my, uh, dissertation, uh, introduction
or, or acknowledgement page, there's

a long acknowledgement page where I
acknowledge my parents for, you know,

teaching me the value of education.

I acknowledge my kids for demonstrating
all of the excitement of learning.

I acknowledge that teacher.

Not in a warm and fuzzy way, but in
a way where there was a line that

said, Do you think I'm lazy now?

And so as a learner, I, in most
situations, whether it was the

Catholic high school that I went
to, or the public institution that

I got my bachelor's at, um, I, I'm
a kind of, um, Voracious learner.

I love to read.

I love to be in community with
people and learn new things.

So the pivot for me to, to
higher ed actually occurred

after I graduated from college.

I was out in the world working,
um, believe it or not, working at,

uh, health and fitness centers.

Don't ask me, that's
the job I got, you know.

So, working at health and fitness centers
for a long time and managing them.

And, um, I came back to Rhode Island, um,
when my daughter was about 3 years old.

And, because it's important to be near
your family and your grandparents.

And started to work, um,
for a tribal community here,

which is part of my heritage.

As, um, uh, I think I was
Personnel Director and then went

on to be Tribal Administrator.

One day I was looking at some
data about the educational levels

of, of people in the tribe.

And I discovered, um, that, The
percentage of people who had

attended college, not just graduated,
attended, was so incredibly low it

almost couldn't be represented by
a, by a number, by a percentage.

It was, uh, on the chart I was looking
at, it was less than one percent.

We're in a tiny little state with like 13
colleges and one that is actually sitting

in the midst of, you know, uh, native
land that belongs to the folks here.

Or historically would have.

And then I started to dig more and
I started to look at national data.

Less than four tenths of a percent
of, um, native folks in the country

at that time had bachelor's degrees.

And I was like, this is outrageous.

What is happening?

And that day I decided to go to back to
school, um, to get my master's degree

so that I could be kind of, uh, A
runner, an intermediary between higher

ed spaces and, um, communities of color.

A translator, um, because so often
folks would say, I'm not going to

college, why would I go to college?

There's nothing for me there.

Um, or even my, my, um, master's research,
the findings of the study that I did

was that, um, Native American students
felt like they were making a choice.

Between being a, uh, a good
student or a good Indian.

That's literally what the
students would say to me.

And so, for them, college was not feeling
like a place that valued their culture,

the way of, um, gaining knowledge, uh,
And so that set me on a whole career

of working in multicultural student
services, working on pluralism efforts,

um, teaching, um, but teaching in
human development with an emphasis on

equity and, uh, and justice, um, all
of the roles I've ever had, whether

they Faculty roles or administrative
roles have always been about how do

we create a more humane, inclusive
space of education for all learners.

And so that's a, that's a, you
know, about 30 years of, of, of work

for me has been focused on that.

I don't know how to do anything else
except shape change in higher ed.

What was it like to be doing that?

In and I, I believe that you were at
one point at Dartmouth, for example.

Am I right?

Yeah.

Um, when was that?

Yeah.

Let's see.

2007 to 2012.

So five years I was there.

And what was your role there?

I, I.

The role I went into when I started
was, um, Associate Dean of Student

Life and Director of the Office
of Pluralism and Leadership.

So, embedded in Student Affairs, doing a
lot of, um, uh, work in their framework to

support BIPOC folks, um, but to create a
robust campus environment around students.

Issues of equity, the Native American
program reported to me, Center

for Women and Gender reported to
me, some advisors for different

affinity groups, uh, reported to me.

So that's, that's how I started there.

And then very quickly was asked
to be Senior Associate Dean of the

College, which had more responsibility
for working with academic affairs.

And then I The last role was Interim
Dean of the College, which was kind

of a major, um, a major role with
a team of about 500 staff or so.

It was a fascinating environment, Jeff.

Yeah, how, how is, I mean, I, this
is why I, I think it's so amazing.

You know, you had, you know, you had a
huge staff, you had huge responsibility

at an Ivy League institution.

Um, It's a, it's a dream job
for many educators, um, but

you're shaking your head.

Maybe, maybe it wasn't for you.

Why, why is that?

Uh, it's a really complex space.

It is a place that has incredible
students from all over the world.

Deeply talented, some really cynical,

it's also a place where power and
privilege is not just something you have

to contend with, but it's perpetuated.

and It can be an environment that
for anyone who is not, uh, attuned

to kind of spaces where that kind
of activity is cultivated, rewarded,

you're like a fish out of water.

And the interesting thing is when I took
the first job there, The, the president

of another college, uh, was a colleague
of mine and a friend of mine and he said,

Sylvia, are you sure you want to go there?

You're going into the belly of the beast
and I said that's where people like me

need to go so we can create change and
I do think I created a lot of change.

Um, I do think students and staff and
faculty who felt like they were on

the margins were positively affected
by some of the work we did together.

And it took a huge toll on me.

And so, it was so interesting
that I was interim or acting dean

of the college for two years.

And that was by contract.

I said, you know, I can't get anything
done if I'm there for a year, so

I need to get some stuff done.

And Um, was invited to apply for the
position formally and decided not to,

and the students could not understand
it, like, because it is the dream job.

If you have a certain inclination,
students were just like, Crazy, they

started petitions and, you know,
hundreds of students were, you know,

signing petitions in electronic,
and I was like, what is happening?

And the school newspaper was
calling me for an interview, Sylvia,

what do you mean you're, you're
not going to apply for the job?

They were just Shocked, absolutely
shocked because they couldn't understand

why somebody wouldn't want it.

And for me, the title wasn't what made
the job, uh, interesting or important.

It was my ability to shape change.

And if I'm somewhere where I can't
shape change, and change is needed,

I will give as much as I can.

And then, um, when I see, okay,
I've pushed the institution

as far as it can possibly be.

Go it's time for somebody
else to come and shape change.

And so, um, I still have so many
relationships with students who

are now married with kids and, um,
successful in their, in their fields

and so many faculty and staff.

Um, and so it was a.

Uh, probably the, a time of my greatest
professional growth was in that role.

Really powerful.

Um, yeah.

Really powerful.

I think it's amazing to sort of contrast,
like you were saying, the, the, the

types of students, the expectation,
the privilege, the, the, the, um,

the, even the path that they, they
must have taken in order to get into.

To get admitted into a
school like Dartmouth.

It's not easy.

It's a path that takes many
years to shape and you kind

of have to walk a certain way.

You have to, you know,
especially these days, right?

I mean, like, I think you really
have to, you have to have that, that

much prove in your co curricular
work as well as your academic

work and, and all of these things.

And you have to, you have
to play the game perfectly.

Right, in order to, to get in.

Yeah.

Um, and, and like you said, you
know, some students, you know,

would find that they don't belong
because they just, they just can't.

It's not a, you know, if the game isn't
what it's about, then it doesn't belong.

That's right.

Then you don't belong.

And contrasting to your current
student body at College Unbound, I

think that's what's so amazing to see.

I can see why you, you are, you are
like, thriving at College Unbound

because these are your people.

Yeah, that's it.

That's exactly it.

That is exactly it.

Um, before I, um, took the
job at College Unbound, I went

to visit, um, a cohort night.

So an evening when all of the students
are gathering, they, the college provides

dinner because so many people are
coming from work or they just picked

up their kids and dropped the kids off.

And, and so there's always a half an
hour or so where we're in community.

Having a meal together, uh, so it can
be, you know, groups of 70 students on

any given night, um, eating before they
go into class, and I remember going

to visit and just looking around the
room and was like, Oh, my goodness.

Look at the beauty in this room.

And these are the students who would
have never had access to a Dartmouth.

And yet they are the people who
will also make change in the world.

So smart, so talented, so
committed to one another.

You know, when they make their way
through College Unbound, I really

believe it is the power of relationships
that they have with one another.

That, that supports them through
the college, of course, does

what it's supposed to do.

But I think the glue is that relationship.

Um, and that's very different
than the experience of someone

who is third generation.

Ivy League student versus, um, some of
the students I saw at, um, Dartmouth who

were first generation college students,
who, brilliant, but didn't have the

cultural capital to navigate that space.

Um, I'll share just one.

story about the kind of pressure
and then why we do the opposite.

There was a, a student that I don't
think I'll ever forget, um, who was a

first generation college student, young
white guy, um, from kind of a rural

area, struggling parents, was there
on scholarship, um, And he worked at,

um, like a, about five miles away at
a local Burger King and would try to

schedule his hours so that the hours
were not when Dartmouth students were

out cruising around going to Burger King.

He shopped at the local thrift store
for his clothes because there he could

get the throwaway designer clothes.

Um, that students and faculty had,
um, dropped in the thrift store so

that he could be wearing the designer
labels that the other folks in his,

uh, fraternity were wearing so they
wouldn't know that he was struggling.

Imagine the amount of work it was
taking for that student to put on

the persona of somebody who fits in.

Whereas at College Unbound,

we don't even, we're not even
thinking about that stuff.

It's a come as you are, be who
you are, because who you are

is, is what is valued there.

And so students, you know, come
from all kinds of backgrounds,

first generation college students.

There's the average age
of students is 36, 37.

Some have college credits
before, some have no credits.

And what they're doing there is.

Actually unlearning what education
is, and learning what education can

be, and re Orient them, orienting
themselves to themselves as a learner,

and that they've always been a
learner, despite any negative messages

that they were giving earlier in
their, in their time in education.

So it's a vibrant, lively, spacious
place, and they are my people.

They really are.

It's fantastic.

Here's a preview of what's coming up
next in part two of my conversation with

Sylvia Spears, Provost and Vice President
for Lifelong Learning at College Unbound.

Look at the beauty in this room and
these are the students who would

have never had access to a Dartmouth,
and yet they are the people who

will also make change in the world.

So smart, so talented, so
committed to one another.