Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear
part two of my conversation with J.

T.

Torres, Director of the Center
for Teaching and Learning,

Quinnipiac University.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

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You know, we'd already talked about,
sort of a lot of mainstream, um, you

know, sort of views of higher education
today and some of it's not in a positive

way because some, you know, I think
that we can probably agree that, you

know, cost is definitely an issue.

Um, you know, affordability, of course,
you know, we, you know, like, and, and,

and, and, and to be inclusive, that's a
whole other, you know, A thing to throw

into the mix of factors, but I, I, I
do want to talk about the product, the

experience of higher education itself.

You talked about first year
experience, which you love.

I love it too, but a someone who's eager
to become, you know, X, whatever it

is, a nurse, an engineer or whatever.

Right.

You know, I've seen people who are like,
either themselves or their parents, you

know, being frustrated that, can I just
go take that computer science class?

Can I just go write code today?

Or if I'm a nurse, can I just
learn how to, you know, do, perform

some procedures with, you know,
with, with a patient or, you know,

give me some hard biology, right?

Why am I taking this class?

That sets, you know, ecological
studies of, you know, um, of

food and agriculture and society.

Why am I, why am I going to have to do
that if I'm going to become a nurse?

I feel like I have some good answers,
but I think yours is going to be bad.

So I Well, I don't, I don't know.

I don't know because I, as I'm
hearing you articulate that and

we run into that a lot here.

So, you know, when I say here again, a
professional university means that the

way we market and the way we recruit
students means that we're promising

them fast tracks to the professions
that they want, to the salaries that

they want, the careers that they want.

We get a lot of students who
ask those questions, right?

Like, why do I have to do
a general ed curriculum?

Why do I have to think critically?

Why do I have to, you know,
be in these courses, right?

That's, that's frequent here,
especially because of the university.

Um, and I have to say, I don't,
I have a lot of empathy for those

students asking those questions.

I think our curriculum
needs a lot of revision.

I don't just mean Quinnipiac
higher education in general.

Um, and I think there's a lot
of limitations because of,

because of accreditation, right?

We're just used to doing
things in certain ways.

We're used to assessing what
we're doing in certain ways, and I

don't think curriculum Um, reform
or even transformation has kept

up with the changing landscape.

So I have empathy for those students.

I think that they've been messaged
throughout their entire lives to

get your salary as fast as you can
get your career as fast as you can.

So we can't blame them for
asking those questions.

What we have to do in the
meantime is Remind them why

those, those topics are important.

This goes back to the just in case
versus just in time learning, right?

Um, we cannot keep doing the just
in case education, um, because

it's too expensive, right?

I also have that point of empathy
because tuition is so expensive.

If I'm coming to school to be a nurse,
um, and I don't know, you know, that

I can benefit from having a much
broader interdisciplinary perspective.

If no one's ever explained that
to me and I'm paying 70 to 100,000

dollars depending on the university
that I go to to be a nurse.

I want that to be as cheap
as possible and I want, and I

don't want to incur those debts.

So I am going to ask those questions.

Why am I here?

Right.

And I think that's totally legitimate.

What we have to do is go back to
that just in time education, right?

So when I have students, um,
I'll just speak to my experience.

I've had students ask why they do
need to take a first year writing

class or why they're taking
an ecological literacy class.

Class.

And you know, the class isn't called
that, but why are they going to

sit in a semester where they're
reading about food and agriculture?

I have to start right away
with the student experience.

What do you eat?

What do you care about eating?

Um, have you known anybody who's
had foodborne illness, right?

Start with this place of desire.

Um, start with this place of connection.

One thing that I've, I've done is I've
tried to jump out ahead of that question.

So I, you know, we have a pretty robust
School of Health Science, um, we have

lots of nursing students here, um, lots
of OT, (Occupational Therapy) students,

um, so I, I get a lot of School of
Health Science students and they come

in with those same prerogatives, right?

They just want to know when
do I get to be a nurse, right?

When do I get certified?

And so I don't rack up all
these, all these student loans.

Um, First day of class, I ask them,
I make it an icebreaker, a community

building activity where I say, um,
you know, some of your nurses, some of

your engineers, but we're going to read
about the environment this semester

as an introduction about yourself.

Can you tell me how you think your future
career connects with the environment?

Right?

And then they come out just because
I prompted them and I made it an

environment where it's conversational.

I'm not lecturing.

I'm just asking.

Here's a thought experiment.

What do you think the connections are?

And I'll.

Regularly hear from, uh, students,
the nursing students who will say

something like hospitals create
an enormous amount of waste.

Here's an article I found that talks
about the weight, the environmental

waste of, of pharmaceuticals, of, of the,
um, of single use protective equipment.

Right?

And then they come out and they
start saying like, Oh, wow, there's

an environmental impact here.

My goal.

A large goal for everybody is to
just realize everything is connected.

Um, my favorite movie is
everything, everywhere, all at once.

All right, and so I, I want to
create that, but in a classroom.

I just want people to see that
all the multiple universes that

are out there connect in some way.

And if you just, if you're open to that,
if you realize that there's no such

thing as an individual course, as an
individual human or individual profession.

Every decision we make has
an impact on someone else.

Not only are we more likely to
have empathy and inclusivity, but

we're also understanding how this
course connects with this course.

I think that's lovely.

And I, by the way, I also agree with you.

I want to go back a little bit on that.

Um, you had mentioned about,
you know, we, we do need a um

reform in, in higher education.

Um, it's, it's really far from perfect.

And, and a part of it is, you
know, like you were saying, how

we assess them and accreditation.

Um, maybe for those who don't
understand the, all of the

relationships, what does that mean?

Like what's accreditation?

What has it got to do with it?

And why do we, why is it so broken?

Like if, if we, you know, JT just said it
like it's it's don't get me in trouble.

I didn't say that.

I'm just joking.

I'm joking.

This is a part that you know, um
is bottlenecking us from yeah,

it is a bottleneck to to to make
make big strides into An improved

version of it that I think many of
us can Could see and would like to

see, and it's worth a lot of money.

There's a lot of research, you know,
they say it can save a lot of time.

It can make all those students who
are asking those questions, they

will provide an answer to them.

So why are we doing like,
what's the, what's the hold up?

Yeah, no, really great question.

Um, and it also relates back to our
earlier conversation about the falling,

the declining trust in higher education,
accreditation serves to make sure That we

are doing what we say we are doing, right?

It is a very, very
important mechanism, right?

It just makes, it's quality control.

It makes sure that when you go to one
university, um, and you accumulate

a certain amount of credits, um, in
pursuit of a major, those credits

should have the same value as a
different university that you go to,

regardless of prestige and name, right?

It's just making sure
that we are delivering.

What we say that we are
delivering to the community.

Um, reform, um, is very, very
difficult because there's declining

trust in higher education as it is.

Um, and I don't know that it's
necessarily a broken system.

It's just a system that
worked for a different time.

I don't think the system has caught
up with the changing landscape.

Um, and it's changing so fast that
we're all kind of confused about

how how we go about changing.

And, um, that landscape has
to do with, you know, falling.

Falling attendance, falling enrollment,
with increasing tuition, with AI, with

the pandemic, you know, all these factors
have dramatically changed the landscape.

And so, accreditation bodies and
agencies are probably not keen on a

whole new transformation right now
when everybody feels that the, that the

land underneath us is very unstable.

Um, and so, we need to find
a way to maintain trust.

Uh, a quick example is, you know,
I love using ePortfolios because I

believe in holistic assessment, right?

The power of an e portfolio again,
you're making learning visible, but

you also get to tell the story of
your own learning of your journey.

You get to see it happen.

You get to include the data that's
relevant to you, and you get to

reflect back on what you're doing.

Um, that's really difficult
to share across massive

bodies of stakeholders, right?

Institutions to, to, to It's
so much easier for us to

share grades, for instance.

Um, so I love ePortfolios, especially in
the context of the ungrading movement.

I work with a lot of educators K
through 12 or in college who want to

find ways to ungrade their classes.

And I am philosophically behind
The concept of ungrading, right?

I understand that grades are an
institutional communication mechanism.

It's just easier for us to say who
somebody is in terms of a GPA than

it is to say, look at this brilliant
ePortfolio they have, right?

Like, we just don't have enough people
in the room to go in that direction.

So while I'm philosophically behind
ungrading, I also reflect on if

colleges and universities like imagine
tomorrow if all the universities

said, we're going to get rid of grades
because we want to be more equitable.

My heart would be jumping up
and down, but I have to imagine

from the public perception.

It's going to look like.

So then you're a degree mill.

How are you evaluating students, right?

Like, where's the quality control?

And then I imagine accreditation
bodies, right, are going to freak out

in terms of like, how do we know that
what you're submitting as artifacts,

right, and artifacts could be anything
from a student essay to a paper to a

project to exam scores, um, how do we
know that these artifacts are aligned

with, um, a certain level of rigor
that we expect from higher education?

So I think that even when our heart is
behind the changes that we need to make,

the current social and cultural context
around higher education is making it,

um, not, I'm trying to avoid using the
word difficult because I don't think

it's necessarily about difficulty.

I think it's more about retaining
and restoring public trust that we

are rigorous, that we are holding
people to high expectations, um,

and then how, How can we do that
in ways that's more meaningful?

Right.

Cause we don't want the very mechanism
that we designed to, um, make sure that

the checks and balances are in place to
stop it from actually catching up with,

you know, what, to actually make it make,
uh, uh, uh, to, to deliver the actual

Product that it's supposed to do, right?

Yep, exactly.

Because it's, uh, it's sort of,
in some ways, um, like you said,

it hasn't caught up fast enough.

And that, as a result, it's, um,
and it happens in a lot of regular

things that are regulated, right?

Um, in, in the world.

Um, I think AI is actually a really
big, you know, um, part of it.

We're not able to, you know, legislate
nearly fast enough, you know, comparing

to how fast the technology is moving.

Yep.

You know, like, and, and it's, it's, it's,
it's It's, uh, it's, it's not only cat

and mouse because it implies that you can
eventually catch them, but it's not like

a runaway train, you know, like, um, so,
so I think it, it is hard and I, I do.

You know, for me, I worry, I worry
a little bit about sort of the,

there is that public trust, but
there's also just the, we have

a lot of choices today, right?

People can get a, some micro credentials
and some, they could learn how to go, they

can go, if they want to learn, so they
can take an online course of some sort,

and that might be all that they needed.

They actually didn't really
want all this four years worth.

Um, and, um, and, and with all of the
choices, it really does imply that, you

know, the landscape of learning could
just be really, and the, the, the, the

landscape of learning with credentials
is also another sort of weird part

too, because then accreditation comes
with the credentialing part of it.

And, and, and, and, and, and I will say
that, I don't know, as a, as someone

who is maybe on the hiring side of,
um, of, of, you know, where we hire,

um, People at our company, um, you
know, we look these days a lot less at

their degree and where they came from.

We look a lot more than the work
that they're able to produce.

Um, and the kind of quality of
the work, the quality of the

personality, the cultural fit.

And we are sometimes looking at that, you
know, degree, not even as a requirement.

It's just, okay, it's interesting
that you went there and did this.

Um, and that it explains your
trajectory of how things worked out.

Do you know what I mean?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

If you did that, you must know this.

Um, at least in my field, right?

In, you know, hiring programmers or,
you know, even a customer support person

or, You know, like I, I'm sure it's a
little bit different if you're hiring,

um, you know, like, uh, like you said,
a nurse, you know, I, I probably want

someone who actually were, you know,
were vouched for that they know how

to, you know, perform, you know, you
know, these medical procedures safely.

But, but for a lot of other, other fields,
actually, you know, we're not looking at

that as a, as a, as a requirement really.

Right, right.

It's less about, like, what badges
you've earned in your, your scout sash

and more about, like, what, what are
you able to do with that information?

Right.

I really want to see you tie the knot.

I don't want to see the fact
that you can tie knots, you know?

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's, that's what I mean
about authentic assessment, right?

And so working with faculty in my center,
it's all about, you know, let's just

stay with the example of tying knots.

If tying knots is the thing that
will make you a professional in a

particular field, then why don't
you just assess them on tying knots?

Don't just give them an
exam about what a knot is.

Right.

And so that's where that movement.

Um, I, that's where I'm always trying
to push the movement of assessment,

the culture of assessment into
these authentic simulated spaces.

Um, yeah.

And then, and then back to that
challenge of accreditation.

How do we report?

That, that, that competency or that
ability, um, or that outcome, how do we

communicate that and report that, um,
within our institutions and to other

institutions, like in the crediting body
to show that, yeah, there's growth and

we're doing what we say that we're doing.

Um, we're just using these authentic
forms of assessment so students can do

rather than just credentialing them.

All right.

Let's, let's talk a little bit about AI.

All right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, we already mentioned it a few times.

I, I think that these days you can't
have conversations without talking about

it somehow or talking to it somehow.

Yeah, right.

Um, I think we should talk
a little bit about it.

I, I want to first, um,
point out one thing.

Hopefully we don't stay
on this for too long.

But, a lot of institutions, when
they hear AI, they are still today.

Yeah.

Um, you know, sort of plagiarism and, you
know, academic honesty and cheating is

the Sort of the first thing, you know,
that many people are, you know, it's,

it's, it's, if we mention AI, that's
going to be one of the top three things

in most people is the top one thing.

Um, so what's going on there?

Can you tell us?

Um, yeah, I'll try my best.

I can't, I don't know exactly what's,
what's going on, but, uh, yeah.

Um.

You know, first thing, plagiarism
is older than AI, right?

Like we know that this has been a concern
for many years, um, for everybody.

And this goes back to our, our
relationship with assessment

that's more about accountability
than it is about improvement.

Right?

And it's not...

we haven't been so concerned with, let
me assess where you are, low stakes, so

I can see where you are, so I can help
you improve wherever you are, right?

It's always been, let me assess where
you are, because this assessment is

going to have implications for your
financial aid, for your scholarship, for

your career, for your ability to say it.

Like, we just create all these
pressures that we inadvertently

message to students, you better pass;
regardless of how you pass, right?

Like you want to keep your financial
aid, you better pass this class, right?

So we create all these external factors,
um, that AI is not really one of them.

I don't think AI actually motivates
cheating and, and this, and I know this

is my own opinion anecdotally, but it's
also based on the research, um, very

new emerging research into AI use or.

Even outsourcing assignments, right?

Like one of the most popular ways
that students have plagiarized

before AI is to go onto websites
where you can pay somebody else

to do the work for you, right?

So it's not necessarily
cheating as we've known it.

It's a cottage industry of cheating.

Um, and looking at those for those
who didn't know, I, I looked it up.

It was between 800 to 1, 000.

You get a guaranteed "A" yep.

Yeah, it's a very known thing.

Students know where they are, you know,
if you just go, you know what, I just

need to get an ECA on this, you can
do that, and they will do everything.

Including creating the
presentation and giving you notes.

If you should, you need to
show up in person to make that

presentation at the final day.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So that's been available, right?

And that's been one of the most
common forms of plagiarism.

So I'm just sharing this to
say I don't think AI created

plagiarism or even exacerbated it.

What it's done is complicate it.

Complicate our understanding of it
because now there's an easier route.

Um But, we also know that when students
are, you know, going back to belonging

and inclusive classrooms, um, we also
know that intrinsic motivation is a very,

very powerful human thing, phenomenon.

Um, if a student is engaged in something
that they're doing, if they have that

interest in something that they're
doing, they are more likely to do it.

Even when shortcuts are available.

So let's go back to video games as an
example, because of course, um, there have

been things like GameShark, their AI has
been part of the video game community and

world for years, where it's very easy to
program a bot to play the game for you.

So you get the rewards from the game
that you want, whether it's the digital

currency of the game, or whether it's
outfits for your avatar, or whether

it's just, you know, to show up on a
leaderboard and to brag to the world that

you're the Madden player or NBA 2K player.

You can actually program a bot to
do the video game playing for you.

Now, there hasn't been a lot of formal
research into this use, but I, um, I

have to believe that the video game
industry would collapse if people weren't

actually playing the games anymore.

Right, so it, here comes this, this,
Mode for you to cheat the thing that

you love doing and people don't use it
or at least abuse it too much, right?

They might, even if it's incorporated,
they're still playing the game.

They're still involved in the community.

They're still doing the thing
that they're being asked to

do by these game developers.

The involvement is still there.

The engagement is still there.

The stakes are a lot lower.

They don't even have to win.

They're just doing it for their
own personal satisfaction.

So they're more likely to actually
do it and go into the flow, right?

And, and be engaged in that moment.

And I think we can treat
education the same way, right?

So when I am working with, uh, with
my class, you know, when you talk

about project based learning, I break
everything down into these separate parts.

Um, I've I'm doing my best to lower
the stakes, you know, because I

want students to make mistakes.

I want them to fail so they can learn from
failure, not fail and then have that "F"

follow them around the rest of their life.

And when I do those things,
um, at least in my own class

surveys and my own, you know, um,
research, my own action research.

Students are less likely to take a
shortcut regardless of what it is.

It's even if it's Chat GPT, I,
I ran a study last semester.

Um, and because of the choices that
they're making, because they say things

like this topic's really important to
me, or they might say things like the

way the assignment is broken up, it's
actually more work for me to use AI.

Um, it's easier for me to just do the
work because you've broken it out into

chunks for me where I feel I have the
capability to complete this assignment.

Well, now we're not talking
about plagiarism anymore.

We're talking about motivation.

And I I'd rather have the discussion
go there where like, let's talk

about how AI can help motivate.

But that in mind and thinking
about equity, imagine a student.

So I teach writing classes.

Imagine a student who uses English
as a second or third language.

It's not their, it's
not their home language.

It's not the language they use when
they talk to their family members.

Um, or even when they think to themselves,
it's not the language that they use.

And I asked the student to write
an essay, just like I ask all my

other students to write an essay.

Right from the beginning, this
student is not at the same

starting point as everyone else.

So now there's an issue of equity.

Let's say that student uses CHAT GPT to
draft an outline or even an introductory

paragraph with the goal of, I'm going to
try my best to make the rest of my writing

look like that introductory paragraph.

I can look at that as plagiarism, or I
can look at that as leveling the playing

field, right, that now that student has
an equal starting point as everybody else.

And so for me, it's more about motivation
and equity because plagiarism is a much

longer, um, An issue that had, that
we've had to face for many more years.

Um, and I think it has more to do
with how engaged and involved students

are, than what tools are available.

I think it really goes into that just
in time and just in case, um, area too.

Like for me, you know, like when
you, when you go in and play Legend

of Zelda, if someone were to say.

Hey, let me play it for you.

You'd be like, no way.

Exactly.

I wanna get to play this.

That's the whole point.

But I, to me, I think that there
is this, um, I I've been using

this other, I'm going to throw, I'm
going to throw this analogy to you

and see what, what you think of it.

Um, cause I can, I think people
go, well, So, you know, Legends of

Zelda is fun, so is entertainment.

How can you compare that
to, you know, the textbook?

Okay, fine, whatever.

I'm going to give you a slightly different
analogy here, because video game is

so fun that they're like, you know,
oh sure, I can binge watch, you know,

Netflix for like 11 hours straight.

Is there a high production
value, et cetera, et cetera.

All right, so let's take
a musician or an athlete.

Let's take an athlete that has to,
train to, um, run a marathon, um,

they don't now, by the way, they
do cheat in different ways, you

know, performance and enhancing
drugs, you know, things like that.

But if you were to tell, if they
were to be told, let's say you are

someone who wants to run a marathon,
you are not an experienced runner.

You went online, bought a course,
or I read a book they gave you.

I mean, this, by the
way, really does exist.

They give you these courses that
basically said you have, you know,

four months or six months, you know,
in every single week, they tell you how

many miles you should run and for how
long and how fast so that they, they

peak you all the way to like the week
before, you know, you run the marathon,

you'll be able to log about, you know,
you can actually run 20 ish miles.

That week, and then the
adrenaline will push you through

to the 26th and finish, right?

So people just want to finish, right?

And I'm not talking about
ultra competitor here.

Just someone who said, Hey,
it's always been my bucket list.

And

You would, you can talk to the person,
they go to week three, they're supposed

to, I don't know, run, you know, like,
log eight miles that week, maybe four

times two miles a piece, all right?

You could not pay that person to
have someone else run for them.

Exactly.

By the way, these are hard, right?

By the time you get to the thirteenth
week, they might be running 18

miles that week, and they're
running, you know, six miles apart.

It's taking them a lot of time,
energy, and it's not the, you know,

it's not like Legend of Zelda.

It's like they are sweating, their head
is telling them to stop, please stop, you

have cramps, your joints not working, you
are hungry, you know, all of that, right?

So you're fighting extreme
physical and mental discomfort.

Um, and challenge to push yourself
to be able to do it again.

You couldn't pay this person to
not do that a hundred percent.

They know that if they don't do
it, they can't run that marathon.

Right.

And that's what the
thing they want the most.

So there is, to me, this sort of, by the
way, these are not people that, that's

new, like they just somehow had this
trust that this curriculum works for them.

Don't they?

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

They didn't, uh, students, I come
to many classes, not your class,

because you are very good at
getting them to understand that.

But if without that, there is this huge
misalignment, this huge gap that sets,

look, I don't know why I'm doing this.

So why, what does it matter
if I had someone else do it?

Because there is this huge misalignment
on this doesn't matter to me.

Right?

The stuff that actually
does matter to you.

Like if you are that nurse and you're
like, Oh no, I, I really need to

learn how to perform this, this,
this task because if I don't, I won't

know what to do when the patient
comes in and has this condition.

So I need to do it.

I can't have someone else help me do it.

Like maybe I can, so to speak, cheat
by saying, well, you thought I need

to have it done, like pat down now,
but I don't, yeah, I need a little

cheat sheet, so to speak, fine.

Right?

But actually I want to do it.

I want to learn it.

Um, so I think that's that trust
and that misalignment that is

really, like powering a lot of this.

And the gap gets wedged and wedged
wider and wider and wider to the

point where a student just kind
of going, yeah, I can just do it.

Hey, like, forget the AI part.

I can pay 800 and get a
guaranteed a any school.

Yeah.

I just do that.

Exactly.

I mean, you're describing
motivation theory perfectly, right?

It's all about goal setting
and those goals have to be

distal and proximal, right?

So the distal goal of, I want
to be able to run a marathon

or just complete a marathon.

Um, that's a distal goal.

I know that I can't do that tomorrow.

I can't even do that
in a year necessarily.

I need lots of training.

What's going to keep me
motivated and keep me.

Um, keep me on track, you know,
through the curriculum are those

proximal goals, goals that are
close enough to be achievable.

And when I achieve them, I can publicly,
um, celebrate them and I can, and

that motivates me and encourages
me to move on to the next goal.

Those goals have to
always be in range, right?

So I think about Vygotsky's zone
of proximal development, right?

We need to constantly set goals that are
just outside of our threshold, but they

look like they're just in arm's reach.

I'm almost there, right?

I can, I can do four
miles this week, right?

I, um, I, I've done two.

I just need two more and I'm right there.

And then before I know
it is 13 miles, right?

Because that goal became within my
threshold, fell within my threshold.

Um, And that's how we need to
set up a curriculum, right?

And so, for example, I have, I'm a large
advocate and we're doing this in much

larger areas now here at Quinnipiac, you
know, we, we tend to, the traditional

story is we cap a course, um, with its
climax, uh, to use this, a story metaphor

with the final exam, which is high stress.

High stakes and largely
disconnected from us.

And we just do a multiple choice test.

Most many students do, right?

Or they do their 20 page research paper.

Um, even if they're invested in it, you
know, it might just be by the end of 20

pages of writing this, I'm done and I
never want to see this topic again, right?

It's not, we're not at a good place
when we reach final exam week.

We bring puppies on the campus to help
destress people because of how much

we stress them out for final exam.

So what we're doing now is we're
calling it a showcase week, right?

So by By the time the final exam week
comes, at least for the College of Arts

and Science, which is going to run this
huge showcase this year, um, Instead

of asking students to take a test or to
submit this major, onerous product, um,

we're going to hold space where they
can engage with authentic audiences.

You know, we're going to invite employers,
we're going to invite community members,

and students are going to present to
them, here's what I did this semester.

Here's this work that I'm really proud of.

It is literally and
emphatically a showcase.

Let's celebrate what you've accomplished.

That needs to work in
throughout the semester as well.

I'm constantly trying to work in
through my syllabus, scheduled

moments of public success.

I want to set it up where the
student cannot fail, no matter what.

They will succeed these, like, and
so they're not truly assessments.

They're more of just a public showcase
to prove to yourself that you can do it.

You've accomplished this proximal goal.

And let's move on to the next one.

Without that, we don't know
what story we're telling, right?

Like, if I'm in a course and I
don't see that relevance to that

course, I'm not going to do what
the marathon runner does, right?

Because I don't see the goals, and I
don't see myself chasing those goals.

I think that's, that's,
that's really a great point.

That, um, that it's, it's a great way
to, to see a solution, like what you were

saying, this showcase at the end, right?

It's, it's such a meaningful
solution that anyone can implement.

It is.

Yeah.

It's just a change of the story
that we tell about learning.

Like, does it have to end with
something as dreadful as a final exam?

I, I, I like the idea.

Oh, I, I like how you
describe that when you are.

At the end of this project, if you
are supposed to, at the end, I go, I

would never do this again, we've like
literally just failed them, right?

Exactly.

Like that's different from like the
musician that goes, by the time I've.

Figured out how I can play
this music, play this song.

I want to keep doing it.

This is when I get to perform.

Exactly.

And I go, Oh, thank
God I can like move on.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

You know, and that's, um, my, my big
pie in the sky dream is that courses

will embrace, um, edutainment, right?

Like I don't, I don't think
there should be a divide.

And I know a lot of people will disagree
with it, and that's, that's fine.

I, um, and I'm, I'm always happy to
have that conversation, but I do think

education should be entertaining.

I think entertainment is a
fundamental human capacity.

Um, and maybe not even human.

I think all species in some way,
shape, or form are driven by the

pleasure and joy of feeling good about
being in the moment and entertainment

should be an instructional strategy.

It, we shouldn't do what we can to.

Leave it at the door.

Right.

Like, like you come to
school, no joy for you.

Joy is not in the word school.

So, right.

Or even, even the word discipline, right?

Like, I mean, what, what
discipline are you studying?

I mean, that word itself, like
discipline and punishment to

echo Foucault (Michel Foucault.)

Yeah, no, that's a, that's
a, that's a good point.

Um, I, I agree with you.

I think that sort of this, you know,
there, there isn't, I think it's a,

It's a silly correlation that, you
know, in order for you to succeed,

it's, it, you're going to put in some
hard work as in unenjoyable work.

I don't think, I don't think
that should always be true.

You know, sometimes we do them, like
I was saying about the, the, you

know, the marathon runner you sustain
through, you know, sort of like.

Serious challenges.

Um, but it doesn't, you know, I actually
think that, um, uh, for, for many people

that talk about that, there is joy to
be have in, in, in those instances.

Right.

Um, and people talk about their runner's
high, but I think there is at least at

the very minimum, that sense of, you know,
like, yes, I'm going to go through this.

And at the end, it's going to have
this, you know, like, the feeling

is going to be great when I finish,
like, that six miles, you know, today.

Absolutely.

Desirable difficulty.

Yeah, and I, I just think that, you
know, in education, um, a friend of

mine, uh, professor, um, uh, Jordy
Getman from Bronx Community College.

Do you know him, by the way?

No, no.

I think you'll really get along with him.

Um, she We always talk about like,
this is some, sometimes it's,

you know, it's academic laziness.

It's like, we, we thought
like we designed this.

We know it's going to work in our head.

You know, we just are too lazy to even
explain to them why this is the case.

And we don't need to convince you.

You have to do this for me as if
you are like my, Employees, I pay,

except that it's completely not true.

You have to circle it out.

So, whatever, you know, that, that
power dynamic of grade and this high

stake thing that you talked about,
this grade, this, you know, this,

like, if you don't do this, you know,
you're not going to get a grade.

If you don't get a grade, you're
not going to get a certificate.

Then your whole life is
going to get ruined, right?

And you're not going to get a job.

You're not going to be
qualified to do this.

And, and, and, and this, You know, creates
a lot of, uh, some animosity almost, you

know, between, between, you know, the
person who sets out to want to learn.

That's why they even bothered
applying to a school and getting in.

And, you know, it's a lot
of effort to get there.

Um, and then the person who actually took
a job, took a profession, make the career.

Many, many faculty members, you know, are.

You know, it's, uh, it's, it's something
that hopefully that they enjoy, you know,

teaching, and then there's a, there's
some version of a passion in their head

at some point, but there is a little
gap that, that is just stopping us

from making that big, that connection.

And I think for folks like you who
can make that connection easily

with the students, because you
have a lot of empathy for them.

Because you can easily put yourself back
into that mode of Legend of Zelda or this.

And you have me with Legend
of Zelda in your own head.

Can't wait, right?

Because if you can do that, then
yeah, as soon as they're gonna stay.

Yep.

I mean, I think, I think about
course design as an epic story.

Right, like, it's the hero's journey,
um, in some way, like, at the start

of every semester, every student is
a hero going on their epic quest,

and I just want them to realize that.

And what is that elixir, right,
that they're going to bring

back to that ordinary world?

What is the thing that they are
learning that they're going to bring

back to their world and improve their
world because of becoming this hero?

Well, that's fantastic.

Um, JT, I think I can talk to you for a
really long time, and maybe we should.

Um, um, talk more.

Um, I'm always happy to talk to you.

Yeah.

Thank you.

But this is, this is fantastic.

I really, really appreciate
you, you know, bringing it to,

to this, uh, to this podcast.

Uh, I, I love, um, I
love the way you think.

Um, I feel like we are really
just scratching the surface and

there's so much that you've done.

I, By the way, did do some, you know,
research, usually don't even do a lot

of research, but, um, I did, you know,
I saw, I actually started reading some

of your, the stuff that you, you, you
did and your, your books that you did,

you wrote it, co wrote a book with,
um, uh, um, another Digication Scholar.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

Jill Flanders Crosby.

Yeah.

From University of Alaska, um, on dance.

Um, yeah.

And, uh, and your own novel, um, uh,
um, about, um, Cuba, is that correct?

Yep, yep, yeah, yeah, it's about,
it's about a family, um, I mean,

it's, it's autofiction, right?

So, like, it's based on elements of
my life, um, but just, like, a family

trying to find their identity, um,
after they are forced to give up

the identity that they had in Cuba.

So it's a migration story
about this being in Florida.

You've got, you've done so
much and then you have articles

about artificial intelligence.

Um, so I, I'm going to try to, um,
make sure some of these things get put

into the show notes so people can go
look for, look for, look for your work.

But we really need to, um, You know,
get you back on so that we can, uh,

we can, we can, we can discuss more
of these topics, especially as, as,

um, you know, the, the, how quickly
AI is going to continue to change,

um, uh, the world and high education.

And I think there'll be, there'll
be a lot to be discussed here.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you.

It's, it's at least job security because
AI is going to change so much that

we need scholars to keep studying it.

Right.

That's right.

Okay.

All right.

Well, Thank you, JT.

Um, I appreciate everything again,
and, uh, we'll, we'll talk to you soon.

Okay.

Thank you.

Okay.

Take care.

You too.

Coming up next, we'll be chatting
with Andre Perez, a student

at the University of LaVerne.

Here's a quick preview.

Be happy to share, share it too.

Just be able to share it
and just share with anyone.

Um, and yeah, just focus on having fun.

That's the most important part.

And then, also, the grade helps, too.

Be serious, but also have fun with it.

It's that perfect balance
you just gotta find.

But don't try and just
make it all academic.

Try and put your own spin on it, cause
that's what a portfolio is all about.