Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll.

In this episode, you'll hear part
one of my conversation with Janet

Van Loon, assistant professor in the
education department and Co-director

in the Center for Social Science
Research at Bucknell University.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations!

I'm your host, Kelly Driscoll, and I'm So
pleased to welcome today, Janet Van Lone.

Janet is assistant professor in the
education department and Co-director

for the Center for Social Science
Research at Bucknell University.

Welcome, Janet.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm very glad to be here, Kelly.

Yes, thank you so much.

And I actually had the opportunity to,
see Janet present at a recent ABLE event,

and that's how I got to know a little
bit about what Janet was working on at

Bucknell University using Digication,
and then had the opportunity to learn

a little bit more about you, um, when I
discovered your professional ePortfolio

that you created in the platform.

Reading that just made me so
excited to potentially have

the opportunity to talk to you.

So, I'm so excited that it's come
to fruition and here we are today.

And, um, just can't wait for
you to be able to share your

story with our listeners.

Thought we would just kind of kick things
off today with you sharing a little bit

about how you made your way to Bucknell.

Oh, that's a long story.

I'll try to give you the brief version.

Um, yes, as you, you explained,
I'm an assistant professor, so

I'm still working towards tenure.

Um, and I, I like, since I've been
here, they've called me early,

an early career professional.

Um, However, this is not really
my early career because I had a

career prior to this, um, being
in the education department.

I worked as a middle school teacher.

That's how I started my career, um,
working in as a middle school special

education teacher outside of Philadelphia
in the Rose Tree Media School District.

Um, I absolutely loved teaching middle
school, um, and You know, speaking of

portfolios, way back when we used to
get our teaching jobs, we would bring

in a giant binder with all samples of
student work, and we would lug this

giant thing around to job interviews,
um, and then put it out on the table and

hope that maybe somebody worked on it.

So this is such an upgrade for
pre service teachers, and I always

share the stories of the giant.

Portfolios that we had to drag
around when I was looking for jobs.

But, um, yeah, so I started my career as
a teacher, um, and never really had plans

of leaving my middle school position, but,
um, a move with my, my husband's position

took us to the Finger Lakes in New York.

Um, at the same time I had two young
children, so I took a little break from.

Teaching in the classroom and started
working in the education department

at Hobart and William Smith Colleges
as a student teaching supervisor.

So that was my first introduction
into working with pre service

teachers and higher education.

Eventually, I started teaching as an
adjunct there, some education courses.

Um, and once I did that, I
decided that I absolutely loved

working with pre service teachers.

That, um, there were so, there was
just so much hope, um, and I felt.

really impactful in that work and being
able to be in the classroom um, and help

them really get their feet on the ground.

The first year or so of teaching can
be really challenging, um, so I want

my pre service teachers to leave
feeling really well prepared um,

to teach a wide variety of students
and know how to meet their needs.

Um, so that, that was my goal and when
it came time to decide whether to go back

into the classroom or not, um, I decided.

to go back to school and get
a PhD, um, which I did at the

University of Connecticut.

I really liked their program in, uh,
educational psychology and special

education, um, and finished that in 2018
and was hired here at Bucknell for what

is absolutely the perfect fit job for me.

Um, I get up and love.

Coming to work every day.

And, uh, sometimes, you know, a career
takes you in a, it's not a straight path.

It's kind of a zigzag when
you follow your passion.

Um, and that has landed me here.

And one of the things that I love
about this job so much is that I'm

still spend a lot of time out in
schools with my pre service teachers.

Um.

During the student teaching semester,
I spent an entire fall semester.

I'm out in schools with them.

Um, so I'm still on the ground, you
know, in the middle of K-12 education,

seeing what's happening, seeing firsthand
the challenges, um, the joys, the

funny stories, all of that, and helping
my student teachers along the way.

Um, and then I, I love, um, Um, all
of the research that I am able to do.

I'm also the Co-director for the Center
for Social Science Research here, working

with students on research projects.

So there's just a lot of ways to
be really creative, um, at the

higher ed level and, and really
form relationships with my students.

Um, That end up lasting a long time.

I'm still in touch with a lot of
my alum who have graduated and

they're now in teaching positions.

Um, so it's, it's wonderful.

Can't say enough about it.

Yes.

And thank you so much for sharing
that background and history.

And as you were speaking, I just,
uh, we have all of these interesting

kind of intersections, Janet.

So I just don't even know where
to start, but I'll, I'll start

with a big thank you first.

Um, because I know from My
own background and story.

I have two children that were in special
ed classrooms in middle school, and I

cannot say enough about the power of the
educators that they had at that time.

And we felt so grateful to
have that available for them.

It was a huge time of transition, um,
as adolescence is for everyone, but I

think there's other layers of challenges
that go along for some students.

And so I first want to just send
a big thank you through the,

through the screen here for all
the work that you did in that area.

And I'm sure it's playing a part in the.

importance that you set in building
relationships with the students that

you're working with and is probably a
big reason why you're remaining in touch

with so many even as they go off into
their careers and in future classrooms.

So it makes a lot of sense that that's
been Part of your, your background

and continuing to work hard to make
future classrooms better through all

the preparation work that you're doing
with your, your current students.

Yep.

I hope so.

I hope so.

But, um, yeah, it's, it is really a
privilege to work with these students.

Um, they are, they are
so inspiring, really.

They, they end up inspiring me
because they, Are bright and

creative, and they are choosing to
go into a field that, you know, we

know we have challenges right now.

Um, we have teacher shortages, um,
and and they're out there working

so hard to make a difference.

Um, so it's just such a
privilege to be a part of that

process and to to be a mentor.

to, to them as they get
started in their careers.

And, um, you know, I hope that they
know that they can come back to me.

We just try to be supportive
throughout their, their own journey.

So, yes.

Yes.

So at Digication, we've talked a lot
about the importance of being seen,

being heard and being recognized.

And You had some language kind
of around that, even just built

into your whole philosophy around
teaching and how you approach that.

Could you talk a little bit about
that and maybe some strategies

that you have to connect with
your Students and try to build up

that kind of recognition for them.

Oh, yeah.

Um, so I guess I can talk a little bit
about my approach to teaching and how

I try to model for my students what I'm
hoping they can create in the classroom.

Um, one of the, one thing that I really
want them to do is, is to understand

the importance of the relationship that
they're forming with their students

in their class, their K-12 classrooms.

Um, so in order to do that, I need to
be a model of that practice and, um.

Try to try to do that with them, um, and
create an environment in the classroom, my

college classroom, that Is is a model for
what they can do in their own classroom,

which, of course, is going to everybody
is a little bit of a different style.

Um, and and they'll find their
own way, but creating a space for

students that is inclusive, um, where
everybody feels a sense of belonging,

um, where everyone feels like they.

They will be challenged, and they're
going to be held accountable and to

high expectations, but at the same time,
like, it is okay to make a mistake.

Um, it is okay to ask questions.

Um, I want you to ask questions.

I will ask, ask you not what
questions do you have, but You,

you have to think of a question.

Um, so it's, it's really about
creating a space where everyone

feels a sense of belonging.

And there are some really specific
things that I do to create that space.

Um, one of the things in the beginning
of the semester and our semester started,

uh, we're just about to head into week
three, um, is that when students come

in, they They all make a name tag.

I think knowing names, like,
immediately is really important.

And then I have them all, um, for
the first Several weeks of classes,

they have to sit in a different spot.

I think oftentimes when we're, when we're
going into a college class, we'd like

first day you pick your, your spot and
you stay there the entire time, right?

Right.

That is my spot, but I completely
like throw things off by, um,

just having them constantly
switch and sit next to new people.

And I really reinforce, um.

That behavior coming in.

As soon as you sit down, you're not
sitting there and taking your phone out.

You are sitting there and talking to the
people around you and making connections.

So I give them some prompts, not to answer
about necessarily about the class, but

to get them building a class community.

So asking there, the person next to
them, something about themselves.

And it's kind of forced interaction, but
I think in this day and age, um, with

phones and technology, it's really nice
to have part of that forced interaction

in a classroom and that's something
that I want them to be able to to

create in their own K-12 classrooms.

And I'm sure once they've had some
time to have those interactions and

learn more about each other that that
community becomes quite important,

especially when they're out doing their.

Student teaching and you know,
right in the thick of it, right?

It really does.

And, and I'm, I'm intentionally creating
for them a collaborative environment.

I always say teaching is
not a competitive sport.

Um, and the more that you feel
that you are surrounded by, and not

everybody has to be your best friend.

So, um, you know, I've had student
teaching cohorts where a couple of them

actually live together and that's great.

They are really good friends.

But, um, but it.

That's okay.

In this classroom, it doesn't matter
who you are, where you came from, we're

all going to collaborate together and,
and be colleagues here because when

you get out to your teaching position,
that's what you want to create there,

a really supportive environment.

So, yeah, yeah, that's great.

So, um, I know you mentioned a bit about
the research work that you're doing too.

Could you talk a little
bit about that also?

Sure.

Uh, so I, I have kind of
my own research agenda.

I, my, focus in my research is looking
at, I do a couple of different things.

I started looking initially at using
video analysis in student teaching

classrooms, so having pre service teachers
video their teaching and then actually

look at themselves for certain things.

Using certain teaching behaviors
and strategies and find times that

they were doing it or find times
that they would have liked to do it

or how it would have been useful.

Um, so that's one thing that I do that
I, that I find is really interesting.

Um, But at Bucknell, we have a lot
of opportunities to get involved in

helping our students become researchers,
which is really fun, or having our

students be involved in our research.

So I've had students work on
their own projects and I'm kind of

providing some support for them.

And, uh, or, you know, just work
on some things with, with me this

past summer, I had a grant from the
Pennsylvania Department of Education.

They, they had grant opportunities
for, um, they were called

teacher prep to practice grants.

So we got a grant here at Bucknell and
we use that to work with our partner

districts and their mentor teachers and
bring them in for in service training.

But I also did a research study with
it and I had students that were really

working on that study, so they came
to the trainings as both participants

of the trainings end as researchers
and they collected some data and then

throughout the summer they were analyzing
that data and there, I still have one,

um, researcher who's working on that
right now and we're actually going to

be presenting, uh, sharing that work
coming up at a conference in Chicago.

So there are just a lot of different ways
to get students involved in research here.

Yeah.

And what a great opportunity for
the students too to be involved

in the research and have all
of this encouragement from you.

To be out there presenting at conferences
alongside people that have been in

the field probably for, for decades.

And just go on.

Yeah, it's, it's a great opportunity,
you know, especially for undergraduate.

We were working with
undergraduate students.

So, um, I know when I was an undergrad, I
didn't have opportunities to do research.

Um, so it's, it's just a really,
I think in some ways unique.

Um, I think if you're at an
institution where there are doctoral

students, then maybe those, those
opportunities don't go, you know, to

the undergraduate students as often.

But we have so many students here who
are involved working directly with

professors, either on, on their own
research projects, um, or helping the

professor like in their research lab.

And my other role on campus is
the Co-director for the Center

for Social Science Research.

Um, We, we have some student fellows
that, you know, they're advised, they

have a faculty advisor, but it's a project
that they've developed just something,

a question that they had, um, they're
really are often new to research methods

and, um, just kind of getting started.

So we use a cohort model where we,
through the center provide them

with some support and guidance.

Um, but then they have their
faculty advisor who has expertise

in whatever area they're working in.

Um, so, you know, the social sciences,
we've got psychology, sociology,

anthropology, political science
from many different, uh, fields.

So I'm not an expert in, in
those fields, but we have the

faculty to support them as well.

You have all of that access.

Yeah.

It's really wonderful.

I think I happened upon one of the,
um, I don't know if it's one of the

students that was associated with this
grant, but this, um, uh, paper that they

had published, and I believe they also
were presenting at a conference and it

was around trauma informed teaching.

Oh, yes.

Oh my gosh.

I mean, we need, We need more of that.

Yes.

Yes.

So, yeah, absolutely.

Um, that was part of the grant, but
that, that was actually another student

that I had who has now graduated and
is doing amazing work in that area.

Um, If you saw that on
my portfolio, I did.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'll give a shout out.

Her name is Nicole Rettig.

And, um, she did, she's published
about three papers at this point

on trauma informed practices.

Um, so she is quite a superstar.

So, yeah, those kinds of experiences are,
and then to watch her, you know, initially

get some experience and come in and have
these questions about like, well, what

are we doing about helping teachers when
we have kids who have experienced trauma?

What does that do?

How does that, you know, does
that burn the teachers out?

How, how do they work with
students, you know, initially?

Come in with those questions and
then undertake like these really

interesting research studies
was really cool to be a part of.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I know, you know, for in
K-12 teaching, there's these

kind of built in opportunities
for professional development.

Um, and I know in the The districts
that I've been in, they're kind of

presented with a, a menu, if you
will, of, of different opportunities.

And I've always just felt like I feel
like some, you know, I know there's

risk of burnout, but I feel like there's
certain Topics, um, you know, trauma

informed teaching, um, special needs
students that may, I wish could be kind

of at the forefront of that menu because
there's so, you're encountering so much

of that in every classroom really today.

Um.

Yes.

That I, you know, I wish there
were ways to, um, yeah, kind of,

you know, I would hate to require
certain professional development

over others necessarily, depending
on everyone's different backgrounds.

But I wish that there could be
more emphasis on things that could

reach more students potentially.

That's my Right.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's so much to know.

Yeah, right.

And, and when we have like the rates of
early career teacher attrition right now,

we really need to be targeting, um, using,
you know, professional development as a

tool to target skill development in areas
that are going to help teachers to stay.

And, you know, you're really hitting
it on the nose there thinking

about trauma informed practices.

And then also, um, one area that
I'm really interested in also

is positive behavior supports.

So how do we kind of create a classroom
environment where we're preventing, um,

You know, the disruptive behavior from
happening, creating a really positive and

nurturing environment that kids can be
productive and learn and grow and feel

good about themselves, while at the same
time protecting our teachers, especially

early career teachers, health and well
being so that we don't burn anybody out.

That's really critical right now.

Yeah.

Um, and for so many students, you
know, that classroom environment, it

may be the only time where they are
feeling safe and supported and It

sounds like you've taken my class.

I say that all the time.

I told you coming into this, I was really
excited to speak to you, um, because so

much of what you're doing just, um Really
speaks to my, my heart and, um, and we

have these interesting parallels in that.

So when I was creating Digication,
um, you know, I didn't set out with

a, um, you know, fancy business plan.

I'm going to go make a product.

Um, I was creating it alongside my, um,
co founder and husband, uh, Jeffrey Yan.

And we were both teaching at Rhode
Island School of Design at the time.

Okay.

And I was teaching in the education
department and he was as well.

So we were in this kind of process
of trying to modeling best practices

with technology for teaching.

And We're init.

We were initially kind of working with
students and having them learn a lot

of what we felt didn't necessarily
address becoming a better teacher.

So we're like, we really need to
create some tools that make it easy

for them to do what we wanna do.

They don't have to learn.

HTML and JavaScript and all of these
things to be able to connect with each

other and present their work and ideas.

And there weren't things that
really fit everything that we were

trying to do for the individuals.

Students and also the program and, you
know, replacing those big binders for

them to be able to share after graduation.

So, you know, I was
familiar with all of that.

And so we had started teaching around
the same time a little over 20 years ago.

And, uh, and classrooms in some ways
were very different than they are today

in terms of the types of technology.

Um, but I think in many ways.

Are the same and that, you know, we're
still human beings that are looking for

connection and mentorship and community
and you mentioned belonging, you know

all of these things are just central to
to who we are so providing those spaces

for students to connect with money one
another and You know, share their stories

and, you know, all of that builds up
and models what they can then bring

into their classrooms, as you said,
and I think it's very, very powerful.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I wanted to, um, We're going
to delve in a little bit into

how maybe you got introduced to
Digication and some of the ways that

you're using it with your students.

And then we can also talk a
little bit about how, how and

why you use it personally.

Okay, that sounds good.

Um, yes.

So the first group that I used it with,
it was, they were my pandemic group.

So there was just so much going on then.

Um, and they, we needed to have, we wanted
to have the portfolio finished by the

end of their student teaching semester.

My elementary group, um, student
teachers in the fall semester.

So we, I introduced it to them as
soon as they got back, but it was

the first time that I was using it.

It was a new platform at Bucknell
that Bucknell was kind of rolling out

as part of their Pathways program.

Um, so I decided to give it a try
in my student teaching seminar.

Um, but I wasn't really Uh,
proficient at, at using it.

I didn't know a lot about it.

Um, so that semester I was really
learning alongside my students and

there are some folks at Bucknell
who have expertise in using it and

they were very familiar with it.

So they came in, thankfully came
into my student teaching seminar

and they gave us some guidance for
putting, you know, setting up our

portfolios and getting things started.

And I found that The student teachers,
you know, of course, they're, um, a

little better with technology than me.

And they, they were really
picked it up very quickly.

Um, and I found that
and they were using it.

So they were consistently using it.

And I realized at some point over the
summer that I wanted to be able to be

the person and I'm going to have to send
them to somebody else on campus and make

an appointment to get some help with,
um, with their, With their ePortfolio, I

wanted to be able to provide that guidance
and feedback and help them get set up.

And in order to really learn it,
I needed to make my own portfolio.

So, this was happening at the
same time we have a, a 10 year

review process that we go through.

Um, and I was up for my 4 year
review and I was putting all

of that together and I thought.

It would be, you know, we break everything
down as professors into our teaching,

our scholarship, and our service.

And I thought it would be really neat to,
you know, my, my student teachers making

a portfolio based on our Pennsylvania
teacher preparation competencies.

I can kind of outline what I've done on
my portfolio and have it as like a, a

little extra thing for my tenure review.

So that was my, my first.

Kind of two goals in making
my own professional portfolio.

One was to learn how to be proficient
and use it so that I can help guide my

students and answer questions from them.

And then the other was just to have
something, a way to, to kind of display

my own work in, in, on a platform that
was inviting and user friendly and pretty.

Um, so that was kind of what,
what got me started with it.

About 3 years ago or so, and
from there, so that was my 1st

cohort that I used it with.

And then the process over the next 2
cohorts, like, I feel really good about.

This group that I'm
working with right now.

Um, I finally figured out just in our
program kind of where to start and

how to, how to help them so that their
student teaching is very intensive.

So they really need to.

Know the platform and have the, it's
also not just knowing the platform,

it's understanding what I want them
to do and, um, right, like it's, this

is all connected to the Pennsylvania
teacher preparation competencies.

So they need to know the competencies,
they need to understand the

rubric and what we want them, the
kind of artifacts that we want

them to use for each competency.

They need to understand, um, how,
what the reflections should be

looking like, um, that are connected
to each artifact that they choose.

So, I've pulled it back.

Fortunately, I work with the
students this semester before.

Um, so, we That my group right now,
they're not student teaching to the fall

until the fall and this week in class
that we got them all set up on Digication.

They are just at that very beginning
stage of setting up their portfolio.

Bucknell has a number of videos where
they kind of walk students through.

So in class, we took time and.

Watch some of those videos.

They followed along.

They started their portfolios.

I showed them some examples.

We looked at the, um,
rubric for the expectations.

Um, and my goal for the end
of this semester is that

they have everything set up.

With at least two artifacts in different
competencies and reflections so that I

can provide them feedback on those and
they really understand the expectation.

And then when their student
teaching, there's, they, they're

already, they can just go Right.

Familiar with how to get all
of that content and Exactly.

Right.

And they're not simultaneously, um.

Trying to just get started on
their portfolio, um, and figure

out what the expectations are
while they're student teaching.

They can see, Oh, this would
be great for my portfolio.

I'm going to plug that in here.

So I'm excited about it.

Yeah.

And I mean, with the results that you've
gotten, even in these, you know, first

few cohorts have been quite extraordinary.

I love how, for those that have.

You know, chosen to make theirs
public, how incredibly visual they are.

And I love the way that they're organized
because even someone that may not be

familiar with the, um, you know, the
student outcomes, student teaching

outcomes that they're working towards and
the standards that are set by the state.

It still feels very comfortable going
in and learning about them and the, um,

different kinds of, you know, curriculum
and lesson plans that they're developing.

But when they get into the details, they
have that opportunity to look at their

reflections, why the students feel like
they've met certain standards, and I

feel like it's a very inviting, open
way for the students to be able to kind

of share that experience and alignment
with a multitude of different audiences.

Absolutely.

And I love, uh, and it's something that
you actually included in, uh, as a, um,

section of your portfolio is advocacy.

And I do think, you know, when
they're kind of thinking about

what they're, what they're sharing
and how they're sharing it.

That all of that material does become
this extraordinary tool for advocacy.

If you know, if they're sharing it with
different people, um, beyond the program.

And even as these early teachers with
this experience have so much to offer.

In what they have done.

Um, I saw, um, a student, I think it
was, um, sort of a science oriented kind

of lesson plan for, around pumpkins.

Um, and I love the way
that they presented it.

You know, you just have this
like great big picture of.

Kind of the materials that were given to
the students and some of the vocabulary

that was associated with those materials.

Um, but they also did a lovely
job, um, documenting what the

actual plan was going to be.

So you can kind of read
through that as a PDF.

And then they have images that were very
thoughtfully taken that, you know, don't

show the students faces, but show them
kind of interacting with the project and

it's just so, um, you know, thoughtfully
organized and, um, yeah, I think just,

just wonderful invitation on each of
the pages where they've included their

work and then you get some insight into
their process and thinking and what

they learned from, from that experience.

And I was curious, you know, as we're
kind of talking about, um, kind of your

thought process and, and how you want
to scaffold this experience for them,

you know, when they were going to be
introduced to it, how they were going

to be using it alongside the student
teaching, um, did you talk about at that

stage and maybe it's something that's kind
of built into the curriculum before they

even get to this, this kind of process of,
um, reflective learning or, you know, why

you want them to have this kind of body
of work at the end that they can share?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think.

In our certification program, like
from freshman year until they graduate,

reflection is a component that is
embedded into everything that we're

asking them to do, um, and I'll say
guided reflection, you know, prompting

students, um, to To think about, think
really critically about what they're

seeing, about what they're doing, um,
about the needs of their classroom and

their own personal growth as a teacher.

Um, which I think is one, as I, as I was
thinking about what we might talk about

today, um, I started just considering
like next steps for where I might go

next with, with Digication and, um, We're
currently really using this as more of

a product portfolio, so it's polished,
you know, and kudos to my students.

Like, they are, the reason
they look so good is because my

students are creative and they are
organized like they're teachers.

So that's what you're going to get.

Um, so, It's, it's, they're polished
and that's intentional because they are

sharing these with potential employers.

So many of our students, um, you
know, rather than bringing the big

giant portfolio, like I did when I was
looking for my teaching position, um.

They are putting, just bringing like a
pamphlet or they're putting it on their

resume, a QR code for their portfolio.

And then right in an interview, it's,
you know, they're pulling it up.

Somebody can take their phone out.

They can say, reference something
that they know is on their portfolio

in the middle of an interview.

You know, if they're asked a question
about classroom environment What

kind of environment do you want to
take, uh, create in your classroom?

They can talk about that and say,
I have an example on my portfolio

in my classroom environment tab.

Um, so it is very much a
product portfolio right now.

I would like to include, keep
that because that is very useful

for them in, in their job search.

Um, but in also include as, as you're
saying, this idea that like just

being reflective and thinking about
growth as a teacher, like we are

in this field, lifelong learners.

We need to be lifelong learners
because the field is changing.

The research is always giving us new
information and guidance about what to do.

Um, and, and.

The needs of our students in our
classrooms are always changing.

So we need to constantly be learning
and be reflective about our practice

and be willing to kind of, um, think
really critically, you know, whether

you've been, whether you're a first
grade, first year teacher, or you've

been teaching for 20 years, really
thinking critically about your practice.

And.

And where you can grow and learn.

So I'd like to, as a next step, um,
at some point, include a process

component of that, uh, just showing
how did they start and how have they

grown that they can go back and see,
oh, well, look where I was in my first

field placement when, you know, we did
a group lesson and I was nervous to

even get up in front of the class and
how far, how, how was I feeling then?

Like, maybe it went really well and
you have great pictures from it,

but what was my reflection then?

Like, how was I feeling about that?

How did it go?

Um, and I think that growth and
knowing that that growth is not

just a part of your pre-service
teacher program, but a part of your.

of your life, of your career as a
teacher, um, is really important.

So I think that's going to be
one of my next steps for it.

Here's a preview of what's coming up
next in part two of my conversation

with Janet VanLone, Assistant Professor
in the Education Department and

Co-director of the Center for Social
Science Research at Bucknell University.

I like what you said about, like, the
messy moments kind of being, oftentimes

being what gets us to where we are, um,
but I think sometimes, you know, as I

said, I'm working with undergraduate,
traditionally undergraduate students

who are, you know, 18 to 22 years old,
give or take, um, and um, I, I think

they sometimes come in with this idea
that like they should, shouldn't have

these messy moments that everything
should just be, be just great, right?

You know, not everything's going to
go well all the time and that's okay.

That's all part of the process.