Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear part
two of my conversation with Jorge

Colón, Associate Professor of Practice
at the Center of Veterinary Business

and Entrepreneurship at the College of
Veterinary Medicine at Cornell University.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

So you, you discovered it through
a showcase, you know, opportunity.

And for those who don't know what
that means, I, I, I'm going to

try to provide some context here.

A lot of schools do this where,
you know, some pockets of a

university is using portfolios.

And portfolios, unlike an exam or a
paper, you know, that you write and

then it sort of gets buried somewhere.

Um, a lot of people have these incredible
artifacts, which, you know, results

in these, you know, beautiful websites
sometimes of their work and achievements.

And, and so on, the reflections and so
on in a lot of places will, because this

work is so beautiful, they just, you
know, create events where it becomes

a showcase event where students get to
show it, talk about it, and then other

people attend and get to learn about it.

Is that, is that the
similar to what you did?

So no, that's actually similar to
how I learned about the portfolio.

When I was down at, you mentioned,
uh, our mutual friend, Pat, he

worked for CTI here at the college.

And they were showcasing, and the
director of the plant sciences department,

if I remember correctly, from the
undergraduate school of agricultural

and life sciences, was presenting how
in plant sciences they were utilizing

the portfolio to showcase the work that
the Plant Sciences students were doing

in their externships and classroom
curricular and extracurricular work

so they could showcase this incredible
work that they were doing, which had

a hugely visual component as well.

And in fact, Years later,
it turns out my daughter is

actually a undergraduate student.

She's a fourth year clinical, a
fourth year student here at Cornell

in Plant Sciences using the portfolio.

In fact, she's doing a summer Externship
and she's taking pictures of things

that she's working at a public garden
so she can showcase it in her portfolio.

So this is how I learned about
the portfolio, but the usage

that I have for the portfolio is
completely different from this.

When I, when I heard this professor
talk about the portfolio, in my mind,

I said, this will be an incredible
tool for utilization in the veterinary

space in a way that we don't have
something that will meet some of

the needs that I think that we have.

And so let me extremely
simplify something.

Contrary to what I think, and maybe my,
my preconceived notions are completely

incorrect, but in my career, other than
when I applied for my job here at Cornell.

When I'm 25 years after graduating
from graduate school, that was

the first time in my life I had
ever really needed a resume.

I had one, but I never
needed to write one.

Because in the veterinary space, there's
a lot of people who get hired without

ever looking at somebody's resume.

If you come to practice at my
practice and visit as a student at

my practice, and I understand that
you understand what you're talking

about, you're coachable, everything
else, then you might be a great asset.

You went to Cornell Veterinary School,
you obviously have the knowledge.

I just need to make sure that you can
do the work and I really couldn't care

less what your resume says, right?

So, so hiring in the veterinary
space and resumes have not always

gone hand in hand, which in the rest
of the world, in the banking world,

in the finance, it, you know, your
resume is a huge component, right?

Indeed, as a, as a place, for example,
online would probably Fail within

the veterinary space because that's
not the way that people get hired.

As an example, just, it could be anything.

There's still a lot of people, LinkedIn,
for example, there's a lot of people in

the veterinary space who just don't use it
because they have never had a need for it.

That's changing, but I don't want, I don't
need to be naming names of companies.

But employers, when they were looking
at potential employees, were then

having to Google this person and what
they're finding through Google or

through whatever search engine is.

Stuff that maybe those people didn't
want to find out, like the picture

that you were doing, you know, doing
a kickstand at the last party you were

at when you got together with your
high school classmates, you know, stuff

that you don't want people to find
out, this is what people will find out.

By Googling or searching for
your name, as an example.

So I don't want people to be
getting hired that way either.

Um, and so I, I thought of how does a
potential electronic portfolio showcase

that which makes this student different
than the other student who also took

the same excellent curricular education
at Cornell, but whose life experiences

have dictated a different moral compass.

The who, the what, of what drives you.

How do I showcase this in a way that
a resume can't do it in simple words?

And that many times a job interview,
which is either in person or through

Zoom now or through social media now,
that can't get done in 15 minutes

because there's a lot of things about
reflecting on somebody's work, et

cetera, that those things that cannot do.

And so that's what we
turn our portfolio to be.

It's a tool for differentiation that
is not, even though it's a social

media platform because it's online,
it is not your social media platform.

The pictures are not there
to present pictures of you.

The pictures are there to support that
reflection of the work that you've done,

the reflection of the learnings that
you have done through experiences, or

to showcase You know, I had a student
who had a picture with Jane Goodall

with a chimpanzee in Africa, right?

That's amazing, yeah.

Picture, right?

And the reflection about what
the experience meant and what she

wanted to become as a veterinarian
was supported by that picture.

It wasn't just the picture, right?

I had a student who was in Israel and
thankfully this person is healthy and

well physically, but There were bones
falling on the street when he was there.

And so when I told him, we were talking
about the portfolio, like I did not

want to know about the story of what
happened, what I, I said, let's get

together and let's go have a drink.

And you tell me the story because
this is incredible, right?

But what I want to read in your
portfolio is how did this change you?

Did your view of humanity as
a future veterinarian change?

What is your moral compass now?

What's important for you?

What you want to become, did that
change because of your experience?

And that reflection on veterinary related
curricular and extracurricular experiences

is what makes our portfolio, which I
believe is a completely different use

of what the portfolio that I got taught
was the portfolio was being used for.

So it's still the same tool.

We're just using it for a
completely different purpose.

And that by itself has
turned into a incredible.

Joke finding tool for students, um, the
end result of our portfolio, because the

second thing that I've utilized is I have
alumni and friends of the college who

serve as portfolio reviewers providing
feedback to students as part of a course

that I now teach called ePortfolio.

And the purpose of the course is
how do you build your ePortfolio and

we just go through an asynchronous
course where they get to do this.

And the end result of this portfolio
feedback system by alumni of the

college, etc, is that People finding
jobs without looking for them is

becoming a very common occurrence.

Networking is insane.

My relationship with our Office of Alumni
Affairs and Development, I'm like their

favorite son here at the college because
the engagement that I'm getting from

alumni with the college is incredible.

Alumni love me because when I reach
for them, I'm just asking for their

time, which is one of the most valuable
things that they can give me, right?

I just need your time.

It was going to take you between
45 minutes and an hour and a

half in an asynchronous fashion.

Maybe you have a glass of wine or a
beer or water in your hand, and you

just read the student's portfolio
and you provide some simple feedback.

That's all I'm asking for.

And they get really engaged.

Alumni Affairs costs them
because they wanted money.

So what's happening now is that the
alumni are calling Alumni Affairs

after they engaged with me because
they feel so engaged with the

college that they want to give money.

So Alumni Affairs lost me
because I'm, I'm, I'm stimulating

the communication with them.

But the process is that, or the end
result is that the students are having

an incredible networking opportunity,
incredible ability to gain mentorship.

To, to find jobs in a way that they
couldn't do before, and just to showcase

who and what of who they are, what
drives them, what's their personal

philosophy, what is important to
them, and why do they want to be the

veterinarian that they want to become.

I love this, and I, I wanted to
dive into one part that you talked

about that I just really love.

And that I think a lot of people
really, if you don't listen carefully,

you miss or you might, you know, it
comes in, you know, I want to make sure

this is really obvious to everyone.

I know so many people when they talk
about portfolio, especially as a showcase

tool, as a job, as a career, you know,
tool, they try to show their skills,

you know, they try to say, I have the
skills, and therefore you should hire me.

Sometimes it's I have the skills plus I
have the certificate, therefore you should

hire me, or I have the qualification and
the skills, therefore you should hire me.

But what you said is, yeah, sure,
I mean, you come to Cornell,

you graduate with a certificate.

We sort of expect you to
have some pretty good skills.

You can show it.

That's great.

But we want to know everything
else about who you are.

All right.

We wanted to know, did you make
a decision to do this because

you mean you met Jane Goodall and
was impacted in a specific way?

Because that might be the
differentiator that makes it

different, makes you different, for
this job than every other applicant.

And it's not always,
to me, even about that.

It's not about them selecting you.

It's also about you selecting the
right, right opportunity, right?

So if you are that person that cares about
certain aspects of, you know, of, of, of

this field, maybe it's a great firm or a
great company that you could be working

at, except that, you know, they have a
completely different, you know, focus.

Then maybe that's not
the job for you anyway.

So to me, there is a sort of like, like
you said, this networking comes in with,

you know, it's almost like, yeah, we
know if you're getting this certificate,

getting this degree, getting this
qualification, that you should have, you

know, all of these basic things, like you
said very early on, but can we coach you?

Are we going to get along?

Is this going to be a cultural fit?

Do we have the same kind of North
star in how we view the world?

Yep.

Right?

And the portfolio gives you that.

And that's the stuff that, by the
way, another one of those things that

I think that when people are really
misunderstanding higher education,

that's where they're misunderstanding it.

That's the stuff that
it comes with, you know?

Otherwise, guess what?

We could have rewind back
many more decades ago.

The library has all the books already.

Why don't we just go there and read?

Read for a few years,
you've read everything.

And, and, and, and why would you
even need to go to, you know, go get

an education, so to speak, right?

Because it's not about just getting that
skill by being able to, to, to, to, to

perform it or to, to regurgitate it.

It's, it's all of the rest of the
building of that human, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in our portfolio, to, to support
what you're saying, in our portfolio,

That skill, mentioning that skill
is not a part of your portfolio.

Students get feedback as they construct
their portfolio, and that will be

one of the first feedbacks that they
get, that this is not what we want.

That's what your resume is for.

This is not to replace a resume.

This is not to replace an interview.

This is a supporting document
in the self marketing process.

What the portfolio needs to do, at least
in our course, in our class, the way we

use it, is why did you pursue that skill?

Like what drove you to it?

But more importantly, what
are you going to do with it?

What is your intent on doing with it?

I don't care that you were a boarded
surgeon, which the students obviously

wouldn't be, but what are you
planning on doing with it, right?

Don't tell me that You are
part, you're the president of

the DEI chapter of the college.

What are you going to do as a
veterinarian with that experience?

How are you going to change?

How are you going to go and influence
young high school or elementary school

kids who A, don't know that veterinary
medicine could be in their future and

B, that they could make a difference
in the DEI world as a veterinarian?

That is what the portfolio shows, not
that you have DEI skills, because your

DEI skills are defined in your resume.

Your DEI skills will be defined
based on the job posting that you're

answering and the cover letter as
you, as you showcase the employer

why you're the best fit for that job.

That's where you show the skill,
but why, who, what, how, and the

moral compass created by that skill.

That's what we have in the portfolio.

And that's what creates
that differentiation.

And Differentiation is the name
of the game of our portfolio.

If the course was not called ePortfolio,
the course will be named Differentiation.

And I, you know, something that I
wanted to also say is that there are

people that I talk to that really
believe in reflection and, you know,

sort of this process in which they
find out about themselves and, you

know, who they are and all this stuff.

And, um, but they, you know, these
are educators have a hard time

than justifying, look, we have a
curriculum that is really full.

We have to teach them these hundreds
of things or thousands of things, you

know, contents, how to do something.

Right.

But we have to, so many of them and it
keeps building up by the way, right?

I mean, is it ever gonna be a smaller
amount of stuff that they have to learn?

No, actually it's just gonna
be more and more and more.

Because we discover more things,
we have more tools, we have

more ways of doing things, etc.

So, given the time, you know,
that we have with them, whether

it be four years or however many
years, you know, we're out of time.

We don't have time for
them to do this reflection.

We don't have time for them to do this.

In almost as if, well, Yes,
I believe it's important.

It's just not as important as,
as the covering all 500 pages of

the book and next year's the book
is now a volume 2 has 600 pages.

So it's even harder now, right?

So what do you say to that?

Well, I have, I have
multiple opinions on this.

One..

Um, what is the nature
of the work that we do?

Um, veterinary medicine is one where, as
you say, there's not enough time for all

the material that needs to be taught.

But veterinary medicine is one of the
things that that class that you took

in fall semester of freshman year is
an integral component of the stuff

that you're doing in fourth year.

It's not one of the things that
you took the class, you pass the

test, and you're done with it.

It's, it's medicine that builds
on the knowledge already acquired.

And for that reason, it's not
something you do it once and forget it.

You have to incorporate it into the
person that you're going to be later.

So you have to revisit and the process
of revisiting things and building

on it, I think has been shown, and
I'm not an expert on this by any

means, but has been shown to create
better retention and better learning,

better knowledge and understanding.

When you incorporate concepts over
and over and over and you build up on

the complexity of each you understand
a concept and then you add to it and

you add to it you add to it versus
just seeing it one time and being

expected to know everything about it,
you know, even after the final test.

So that's one thing.

The second thing, and we
actually just participated.

In a conference where we're talking about
feedback within the e portfolio, um, as

a driver for self regulated learning,
which is a process in the process of, you

know, coming up with an idea, implementing
that idea, getting feedback on that

idea, accepting that feedback, seeing
feedback for continuous improvement.

And Continuous Propulsion, Propagation,
and the process of learning a concept

over and over and over in a better way.

And so the ePortfolio was a
perfect example of feedback as a

driver of self regulated learning.

And that again goes into the
factor that yes, there's not

enough time for all the stuff.

That we have to teach.

Many people say that veterinary
medicine is more difficult than human

medicine because whereas human medicine
they go obviously much deeper into

one specific species, you know, we
have to be able to improve on that.

And the anatomy is not the same, the
physiology is not the same, the the

diseases are not the same, and, and,
and the exam for you to have your

veterinary license covers all of them.

Um, and so there's a lot of stuff to
be taught, but it's not a learn this

one time and you'll retain it forever.

And so you have to keep
bringing it together.

And so, um, I, I, we have to keep doing
that even though there's not enough

time, you have to keep revisiting items.

It creates better
retention of the material.

It creates better
understanding of new material.

So all these things are very important.

It's almost like the net results over
the long term is going to be much better

because you are now a better learner.

You are more efficient at learning.

You know what type of person you are and
what makes you, you know, what drives you.

And I think that there is plenty
of research that shows that

when your drive is there, your
performance shoots up exponentially.

Without the drive You know,
you're just doing it because

someone dangling a certificate
at the end and it's like dragging

yourself to cross the finish line.

Whereas with the drive, you want to
cross the finish line because you

got some more important stuff to do.

Right, it's not just a certificate.

And I think that's such a, to me, there's
almost like this very visual way of

thinking about, you know, like, You know,
the, the, the two different tribes of,

you know, people, you know, when, when one
is, you know, filled with that drive that

they can only get through a lot of self
examination of them, of themselves, um,

right, no one can tell you that, right,
it's sort of like how you study yourself

and get your experiences together and
discovering them, um, I love the, some of

the things that you talk, all the things
that you talked about, you know, your

use of, you know, portfolios now, one
of the things that, um, I, I, I kind of,

you know, it sounds like, you know, they
start in the beginning when they, when

they came, when they come to the program.

Is, is that correct?

Uh, you mean the course
that I'm providing?

The course, our students go through a four
year curriculum here at the veterinary

college, and the fourth year students
are rotating through the clinics, and so

they are not actively in classes anymore.

So the students that are Available
to take, this is an elective course,

we call them distribution courses,
students that are able to take

distribution courses are students in
their first, second, and third year.

So, our course is available to any
student in any of those first three years.

So, they can take it at any time when
they can fit it into their schedule.

Um, obviously, a student in the third year
has more curricular and extracurricular.

Veterinary related experiences that have a
deeper meaning that that veterinarian that

you were working during the summers while
you were in high school type of scenario.

So they can get a, though they
should be able to get a deeper,

more meaningful portfolio.

The first year students are still
producing really good portfolios.

So, so the quality of the portfolios
and the depth that they go into,

they're still really good no
matter what year they take it.

But the main thing that gets, that
gets driven into the process is

that, that semester that you take
the ePortfolio course, that you

learn how to build your portfolio,
that's not the end of your portfolio.

This is a living, breathing document
that needs to keep growing with you as

you go through your curricular education
and even after you leave the college.

And so it just needs to keep
getting updated and new reflections

being put into it, whatever.

The purpose of the course is to teach
you how to create it and why you should

create it and the importance of creating
it and reflecting and the importance

of all these things, but this is for
you just to keep using it for later.

So they can take it at any time.

And I, and I think that one of the,
I love that because it's so universal

can, because by the way, some of the,
the, the, to me, some of the really,

um, sort of this continuum of when
do you start to do this reflection?

is a question that a lot of, I hear
sometimes from, you know, um, sort of

academics who would say, Oh, I love that.

They, they should be able to do that,
but only after they've learned all these

skills, um, and, and it's, uh, it's,
uh, it's sad because, you know, I think

in some ways one would argue that those
who are able to get exposed to this way

of learning makes it more efficient for
them to learn all the skills as they,

you know, go through their, you know,
their, their, their other coursework

as they are taking a lot of content.

And to that, to that end, I even say,
Hey, look, I'm seeing, at Digication,

we see a lot of high school students.

Middle school students, even elementary
school students do their versions of it.

Now, they're not necessarily, the
elementary school students are not

necessarily doing the same kind of
reflections that your students are doing,

but this idea of giving them space and
time to just kind of soak in what they've

done and have a chance to think about it,
have a chance to make sense of it, is,

to me, is just a wonderful thing to do.

Yeah.

And I have a gut feeling that the younger
students, when they do the portfolio,

at least in my mind, I think that when
they approach those future experiences,

their mindset towards them is different
because they already get exposed to

reflection on what they already did.

So they'll be pre-reflecting on what
they're doing or what they will be doing.

So there will be more meaning into
why do I want to do this summer job?

Or there'll be more meaning as to why
do I really want to take this class?

Like I'm not just taking this class now
because I got to fulfill a requirement.

I got to take this class because
I'm interested in this or this will

catapult me into something else.

And by the way, it also
fulfills a requirement.

The end result is still the same, but
the reason why might be different.

And so I still think that the
portfolio will create a huge

difference in the process of.

Just because people start acting
and behaving differently at least

internally towards their vision of
what is it that I need to do, why is

it that I want to do that, and how
am I going to get towards doing it.

I think their attitude is different.

Well, I think that your, the example
that you gave also shows this.

Incredible, um, direct correlations
with the outcomes as well, because

I think that a lot of folks that I
talk to, they say, well, we don't

have time for the reflection, because
we have to cover all these things.

And in their mind, they justify by
saying, hey, look, you know, if they

need to get a certificate in this, we
know it for us to, you know, Give them,

you know, give our seal of approval,
we must, you know, cover these things.

I think some of it is just, you know, I
think that there was a time where there

was a finite amount of things that you
can sort of squeeze in and it's okay.

But I think that the content now
is so vast, I mean, I can't imagine

in your field, how do you even
have time to study the, the, the,

all the different species, right?

Um, and so, so vast that it couldn't
be the drive, the only drive.

And so I, I, to me, one of the interesting
thing that you had said was, it is

in these reflections that get them.

Job opportunities and getting them hired.

So for all of the people thinking about
what we can do to better our students

lives in a very direct, simple way.

Hey, they come here for this.

I want them to be able to be successful
and be fulfilled, you know, by being

able to have these opportunities.

Guess what?

The people hiring are also
looking for that, actually.

They're looking for these reflections.

So these reflections are not
this touchy feely thing that is

like It's nice to have, but you
know, it's o it's, it's okay.

We don't have it.

If anything, it is the
differentiator, isn't it?

It is the differentiator and, and the
reflections allow the students to have

meaning towards that material that
they're learning in the classroom.

And so it's not just this stuff
that they just gotta memorize to

spit it into a test answer later.

Their mentality is just changing into
finding meaning into the scenario.

I'm, I'm gonna tell you a very, very quick
story about exactly what you just said.

I have a colleague that I knew from
veterinary school who said it was

an equine practitioner as well.

And she's one of the alumni that I
have used as a reviewer of portfolios

to give feedback to the students.

And she has participated in this
process with me for the last two years.

And I was chatting with her the other day.

In her mind now, a student from Cornell
that applies for a job at her practice,

she's got a fairly large practice,
who does not provide a portfolio as

part of their application materials.

She instantaneously think that there
might be something wrong with the student.

Like, why did you not?

So, so it's flip the switch
on the scenario like why

don't you have a portfolio?

Like, I would know so much more
about you if I wanted you to

be part of my business or not.

From this portfolio, and I'm
used now to the portfolio, if you

don't have one, you're, you're
leaving me as the employer hanging.

Like your resume is not enough.

I get comments.

I have learned more about you from
this portfolio than from any CV or any

resume I have ever read in my life.

Like I have never met you, but I know you.

Like when can we meet?

That's amazing.

That's amazing.

It's a, it's almost like by learning
about yourself, you show the path

for other people to learn about.

What's your passion?

What drives you?

What's your personal philosophy?

What are your goals?

What, what, what's your moral compass?

Those things make a difference for
those people that you will work

with because you can learn all
the book knowledge that you can.

You could be the top graduate in
your class and have the highest GPA.

Absolutely an incredible feat, and you
can, but if you can't tie your shoe when

you go out into being the professional
that you're trained to be, right?

You could tell me, if you can tell me
how to, the molecules that are made

up to design those shoes, excellent.

But if you can't tie it and walk
with it, then what's the use?

You gotta be able to do both.

And so this is what potential
employers are looking for example, or

this is what the students should be
looking for, for when they get out.

They need to know why they
want to know this information.

Like what is the ultimate purpose?

The ultimate purpose for a veterinarian
is as the veterinarian's oath says,

you know, to take care of animal lives.

And so what is the purpose?

You could be great at doing
it, but if you don't know why

you're doing it, or what is the.

Passion in doing it, then, then you're
not going to be as good as you could be.

And so the reflections
create this and all this.

All the stuff that we've been talking
about and hence the answer to the we don't

have enough time in the curriculum for
reflections, it's like, well, you better.

Because this drives better learning than
just material information on a one way

street, which is a lecture to a student.

It just, it's not, it
just doesn't go there.

And by the way, we were talking earlier
in this conversation about what it

was like when you and I were students.

This was no part of the equation at all.

We didn't have this.

And so, I think it's a much better
way of approaching learning today

than what we had and just, again,
maybe it was present, it would just

not amplify, I think you used a word
which I think is perfect, it would

just not amplify to that level before.

So, maybe better times now.

So, I have one last question for you.

Sure.

And it, it has more to do with, you
know, your, I wanted to, to tell you

that in the field of ePortfolios, in
the, in the, in the, In the, the, the

general sort of portfolio community
had always made this assumption.

Again, I think it's an assumption
that's incorrect, but I think they've

made this assumption that it's easier,
is more natural, is more intuitive to

do all this portfolio, reflections,
et cetera, if you are in the arts.

The science folks, the STEM folks,
you know, the folks in medicine, the

folks in engineering, the folks in You
know, you guys are all very sort of

black and white, and therefore, this,
this, this, um, reflection stuff does

not apply, um, it, it doesn't work.

Now, of course, in your case, it does
and is critical, but how would you

sort of give people a little insight,
the window of, you know, what real,

you know, sort of what is really like
in the, in, in, in, in the sciences?

Because I think that some of these
are just people make assumptions

because they didn't know what it's
like, you know, to learn in, in, in,

in, in the, in the science fields.

I can see how in the non science
fields, like, for example, my

daughter in plant sciences.

The showcasing of the work done and
the beauty of the work you see in

public garden management, for example,
the beauty of the work done and

The accomplishments that the visual
component that is extremely important

and the portfolio allows in some
case, allows them to showcase that

together with the description of what
they learn and the reflection on it.

Extremely important.

In the science scenario, pictures of them
doing a surgery or pictures of them doing

a physical exam on an animal, that is
not Which will be the equivalent, right?

But that's not what drives
the purpose of the portfolio.

The science comes as to the why is
that you want to be a scientist.

I'll give you an example.

You read one of my student's resumes,
and you can see that this person has been

interested in things related to oncology.

And research related
to cancer, for example.

And you can see based on the resume
that they have done experiences on this.

If you, um, read about their experiences
this will be, you don't know why

maybe they're interested in this, you
know, it's a, it's a, uh, um, great

field within the medical field, with
our human and veterinary space, etc.

But when you read their portfolio,
and then you discover through self

reflection that maybe A parent died
when they were young because of

something related to cancer, and
that drove them to be the type of

scientist they want to be in the future.

And now that who, why, and what, why
they want to be an oncologist has much,

much deeper meaning and significance.

Significance that there's emotions
associated with that non emotional

component of a scientist, right?

Science is supposed to not have emotion,
but it brings emotion to the table.

So, As an example, an employer sees,
you know, this is a life experience

that has driven this person's
drive towards being a scientist.

That doesn't mean that somebody
who didn't have a issue like that

as a young age, that they wouldn't
be a great scientist, but it's an

example of something that showcases.

And so the portfolio serves to
showcase in the sciences, some

things that there's no other way.

That you would learn about this person
because there's no interview as part of

a job interview that you would find out.

That this future graduates drive
towards becoming an oncologist

because a parent died of cancer when
they were little, that that's not

going to come up in an interview.

And by the way, you probably can't
add, there'll be illegal for you to ask

something like this, but if they reflect
on the why they want to be that person.

Now, you know, a lot
more about this person.

You understand their drive,
you understand their passion.

It has a lot more meaning to it.

And there's emotions attached to it.

So the portfolio brings
something to the table.

That is actually make science
that much more powerful.

So it's just a different way
of using an incredible tool.

I love that.

I love that.

It's, it's, it's almost like the, you
know, the, to me, I always find that, you

know, when we, when we hire people, you
know, the skills and all of that is fine.

It's really, you know, it's a big test.

Sometimes is when things get hard.

Can you?

Can you push through?

You know, when things get really tough,
when things that seem impossible,

do you have that extra drive?

The extra gear that if everyone's
just running on the same

gear, we're all good here.

You know, like we can
drive you at a high speed.

Is, is good.

But when I need that extra
gear, do you have it?

And without knowing, like without
knowing that reflection, I

don't know whether they have it.

You know?

We always say one of the true
measures of a vetenarian is what do

you do when no one's looking, right?

The animal is here with you, they
can't talk, they can't say, right, um,

when, when times get tough and are you
doing the right thing by your patient

that nobody else would know, right?

And that's just that.

Passion, that drive, that extra gear that
you're talking about is something that

actually can be seen through a reflection.

You otherwise wouldn't know it.

And like you said, I
can teach you any skill.

I can teach you how to suture
a patient after a spay.

I can teach you how to do a nerve
block on an animal for a lameness exam.

I can't teach you how to care.

I can't teach you how to
have passion for what you do.

I can't teach you how to have
pride on the work being done.

And reflecting on these things
does drive those things to come

up to the service and be seen.

And if you don't have them I, in
my mind, hope that the process of

reflecting might start generating
those feelings to come through.

So, it's extremely valuable, the
process of helping people truly

become better versions of themselves.

Well, that's beautiful.

Um, well, I guess, you know, there's so
much more that we could talk about and

maybe we'll hopefully find another time
to, to continue this conversation, but it

is, uh, lovely having this conversation
with you, Jorge, and I really appreciate

you sharing all of these insights.

Well, Jeff, truly my pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

This, I, I enjoy.

The, uh, Digication product that you
guys put together, I enjoy, truly enjoy

what's been accomplished with it and
what we'll continue to accomplish.

Everything that's happened thanks to
the ePortfolio is much, much greater

and bigger than what I ever thought
I was going to accomplish with it

because, um, um, I'm not that smart.

Um, it's, it's way beyond anything that we
ever thought we could accomplish with it.

And, and it goes into the process
of showcasing to other people

what our students are made
of and, and what drives them.

And so it's a, it's a huge.

The important component of what I
do here at the college now and, and

being able to talk about this with
you and for, for your listeners is,

it's completely a pleasure for me.

So thank you for the opportunity.

Thank you.

Thank you for the kind words.

All right.

Well, take care and talk to you soon.

Okay.

Okay.

Thanks Jeff.

I appreciate it.

This concludes our conversation.

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