Episode 126 Empowering Learning: Embracing Diverse Perspectives in Liberal Arts Education Part 2

Welcome to Digication
Scholars Conversations.

I'm your host, Jeff Yan.

In this episode, you will hear part
two of my conversation with Laura

DeSisto, Program Director and Senior
Lecturer for the Master of Liberal Arts

program at Johns Hopkins University.

More links and information about today's
conversation can be found on Digication's

Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Full episodes of Digication Scholars
Conversations can be found on

YouTube or your favorite podcast app.

One part you said that really, um,
uh, You know, really rings true in my,

also just my experience and, you know,
seeing people around, around me and

colleagues and people I've come across.

People I admire, right, is, is that,
um, all the, all the leaders, um, there

isn't one, one leader who, who hasn't,
who hasn't, whether they got their skills

from a liberal arts education, who doesn't
have all the skills that you, you talked

about, um, and, and there isn't really an
easy direct path to learn those skills.


There just isn't.



Um, you know, there actually
isn't a You know, um, you can't

major in being a CEO, um, right?


You can't major in being
the United States president.

Um, the, these majors don't exist and, and
it really requires a person to, to, um.

You know, you can either professionally
try to get that experience

through something like the MLA
program, or you have to seek it

elsewhere, but you have to get it.

You don't, it doesn't come for free.

You don't get to get a, you
know, education or an experience

in a professional way.

You will get all that
experience, no doubt, but you

just won't get the other part.

And no, at the same time, getting this
MLA degree doesn't give you the ability to

operate on someone's open heart surgery.


You know, so look, you know, you, you,
you, you kind of need both, you know,

yeah, so, so, but if you are, I actually
do think that there's something that,

cause my, I have three Children who
are, um, uh, sort of high school age

and they're, you know, they're thinking
about careers and, and things like that a

little bit and, and, um, it's interesting
because they all have different,

different, different ways of thinking
about it, but definitely, um, uh, some.

Some sort of, you know, like, I
don't know what I want to do, right?

And, and I actually think that,
um, That's the person probably

would have been a perfect fit
for like a liberal arts program.

Because it allows you to
look at the world intensely.


For a while.


Let you understand, like you said,
understand what it means to be human.

That you make some, get some ideas on.

It's almost like you get to date all
the ideas that exist in the world that

could matter so that you can pick out
something that is meaningful for you.


Like you'll build your
value system, you know?

And then work your way into
something that will potentially

click for you and that's fine, right?

There's no harm in that, right?

I agree completely.

You know, it's really interesting.

My father was a chemical engineer,
but he was one of the people who was

most supportive of the fact that I
entered into college already having

declared philosophy as my major, right?

And so, and he would read my
papers because I'd ask him to.

I don't know how much of the content would
connect, but, you know, there was that.

And then after he retired,
he started teaching.

Math, and he and I, I would have the
best conversations about teaching

and learning that were grounded in
philosophy, even if he didn't have all

those texts in his background, right?

You know, those kinds of things.

And that's what I mean where I
really want to make sure it's clear

that sure, of course, because of my
particular training and because of

the program that I'm associated with,
it looks a particular way and has the

trappings of a liberal arts education.

I don't think of liberal
education more broadly.

With a gatekeeper mentality, right?

I think that there are points
of access to this kind of way of

exploring and understanding and
engaging with texts and ideas that

exist in a number of different spaces.

Um, what's nice, going back to your point,
is that we happen to provide it in a way

where we're giving you some guidance.

We've assembled a collection of
courses that we think come together.

In a way that benefits people.

If other people want to get at it
a different way, that's fine too.

It's not, it doesn't, it doesn't have to
be, you know, the only pathway through.

It is funny though, in terms of what
you're talking about, I'm trying not

to be the philosophy nerd that I am,
but you know, you're, you're touching

upon these ideas about the, you know,
what does it take to be a good leader?

I mean, these are the kinds of
questions, this goes back to

this theme of eternal questions.

These are ones that we've been
asking for thousands of years, right?

Um, LATO's Republic is an entire dialogue
about who should lead and what is the

proper education for those who lead.

And, you know, spoiler alert, it gets
very messy and complicated along the way.

I won't give everything away.

I'll let people Dive into
that text if they choose.

Um, but it's, it wasn't a clear cut answer
in terms of how you go about doing that.

And then even, you know, we move a
little bit further, not that much, but

to Aristotle and, um, his discussion
about someone who is the best prepared

to live a life of human flourishing.

And one of the key factors that he
talks about is practical wisdom.

Practical wisdom is not necessarily
something that is easily.

taught, but it is something that
we work toward and that that it

doesn't just, you can't just snap
your fingers and suddenly have it.

And so again, and this is actually
why I really like, I have in my,

for a significant portion of my
career taught in the undergraduate

environment, but I do really enjoy
working in this graduate space as well.

I love working with
undergraduate students.


No question.

Um, I've so many positive
associations with that.

But there's something really
interesting about working with

individuals at this graduate level.

You know, they've already received
their undergraduate degree.

Like I said, in many ways, they have,
they're, they're moving on in their lives.

They have careers, they have
other commitments, they have

all those other sorts of things.

And yet, they're coming back to do this
kind of concentrated study, bringing all

of that wealth of experience with them
into the conversations, right, bringing

all of those different, not just their
schooling experience, but also, in many

cases, their professional encounters,
their Opportunities that they've had

to engage with the world around them,
whether that means they're located across

the globe, or they've traveled more,
or all those different sorts of things.

And then they're bringing that in
to do this kind of study, right?

It's cliche, but in liberal
arts education, the phrase

lifelong learner often is heard.

It actually can mean something very rich
and true where these individuals are

willing to make themselves vulnerable.

To get outside of their comfort
zone and learn things that they've

never encountered before and I
think that feeds into those other

kinds of positive qualities that
you were alluding to before, right?

I mean, I know there are
different concepts of leadership.

But I think a really strong one
is somebody who is willing to

do all of those things, right?


Hear from others, learn from
others, and so on and so forth.

I, I also must say that there is
a, um, one more piece that, um,

to me, having the skills to lead.

Um, you know, or to also combine
with a lot of the understanding our

environments in the world in which
we live and how we can improve it,

sustain it, and do all of that.

And I, I do think that there is a,
um, um, you know, like you mentioned

before, so many students might have
had an MBA before or after, right.

And they may go on, become, you know,
successful capitalists and whatnot.

Um, but one of the things that I.

I, I hope that what something like this
get them to, to include in their way of

operation, the way of day to day, you
know, decision making and, and, and just

what, what, what, what, what's meaningful
for them is to not only do it for the.

You know, not in the expense of other
people, it's how do you make the world

a better place, make it a more habitable
place, happier place, in general.

I mean, it's tilted in that
direction, even if it's not

fully tilted in that direction.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so one of the core classes that I
teach is called, um, Ways of Knowing, and

it's the historical and epistemological
foundations of liberal arts education.

I know that's a very wordy title.

In sum, basically what we do in that class
is we study the history of what the term

liberal arts has meant and what liberal
arts education has looked like and how it

has shifted and changed over millennia.

And, um, I teach it in the fall.

And so this past fall, so the semester
was coming to a close in December.

And my students in the final unit of
the course are working on research

projects related to contemporary
challenges that are, that we face

in terms of liberal arts education.

They choose these different categories,
um, Liberal Education for Democracy, uh,

Working Across Disciplinary Boundaries,
Liberal Education Across the Globe,

and, uh, Diversity and Inclusion.

Or actually, I should say Inclusive
Excellence is that category.

And I had a few students, one of them
in particular that was coming to mind.

Uh, she is very, very successful on the
West Coast in the technology, the computer

science world, that, that whole realm.

And she decided to do
the Crossing Disciplinary

Boundaries topic for her study.

And she was looking at computer
scientists in particular and how she was

trying to make a case for how and why.

True study of ethics, not, you know,
the, the kind of, uh, surface level,

like case study, morality kind of
class that sometimes you get exposed

to in a business school or something
like that, but a genuine study of

questions related to how should we live?

What does it mean to live a good life?

And she was trying to make a case
as to why that was really important.

And just as she was getting to
the final weeks of working on her

project, All the news started really
popping up about CHAT GPT, right?

And it launched this whole discussion
in my class about just because you

can doesn't mean that you should.

And, or what are the implications, even
if you can create something like this?

Are you thinking through the
moral and ethical implications

of the thing that you've created?

Not to bash it, right?

Not to say that it's a bad creat
you know, that we actually need to

acknowledge that there are many ways
in which artificial intelligence is

already built into the infrastructure
of our lives in ways that are sometimes

even completely invisible to us.

But thinking about what would it
mean for every time we're innovating,

every time we're, there are disruptors
to what we think of as the norm.

Those individuals are also engaging
in dialogue and conversations and

questions with one another about this
idea of, again, to put it kind of in

a trite terms, just because we can
doesn't mean that we should, right?

And that can be applied to
conversations about the atomic bomb.

It can be applied to any number
of other things that we've

encountered in our society.

And going back to your point,
as we continue to astound.

ourselves and push the boundaries
in terms of what we can create on a

technological level and in terms of
what we can do as human beings, as

societies and those kinds of things.

At least having access to those kinds
of questions and the different ways in

which people have gone about answering
those questions or, or thinking about

them or adding complexity and nuance
to how we respond to those questions.

I think, like you said, it, it won't
drastically change things, but it

might shift things a little bit.


I, you know, um, my brother's
a software architect.

I know about the excitement that goes
into being able to create things in code.

I'm not against any of that.

I just shared the ways in which I think
our program shifting to online, even

though it took me out of my comfort
zone, actually has benefits to it.


I, I'm not.

Doing, again, the head in the sand,
you know, anti stance, but I do think

it's worthwhile to bring this kind
of liberal arts informed mindset

into these conversations, I guess.

I think that's a really
great way to, to say it.

Um, let me ask you just a little bit of.

I mean, you had talked about before
you were using, I mean, I, I would, I

would feel silly not to have, you know,
including this into the conversation.

Now you've been using portfolios
with your students doing all of this.

Is it?

Um, can you tell me how, how that
works and why, why are you doing it?

Because you know, like I, I, I
think about all of the things that

you talked about and I feel like.

You know, I feel like, first of all,
I want to apply, and I think probably

everyone else does as well, you know,
just let us know the, you know, where I

was to get all the scholarships as well.

And then, you know, learn in, right.

And then, um, uh, but, but it's
almost like, how, where does

all of this stuff go, you know?

And I'm thinking, and you have
this portfolio system and you're

using it with your students.

Can you tell us a little bit about that?


I'd love to.

So, okay, so the, in terms of what brought
me to it, I think of it in terms of a

couple of almost vignettes, um, in the
sense that, as I already mentioned to

you, uh, with my philosophy and education
degree, depending on which university

I was at, I was either situated in a
school of education as one of the few

philosophers, or I was a philosopher With
a specifically education mindset, right?

So it just depended on where my home
base was, but in working into teacher

education, as you probably already
know, portfolios have a long history

and, and the point of them, at least
when, and again, most of my teacher

education work has been in institutions
that have a commitment to liberal arts.

So teacher education in the liberal
arts context, which I know can look

different, you know, depending on the
kind of, uh, university one is at.

Um, but the point that portfolios play,
for those who don't know, is as the,

the student who's, uh, working toward
licensure as an educator finishes

their coursework, and then they're
doing their professional practice,

whether that's usually their placement
in schools and those kinds of things,

and then preparing themselves.

To then be able to work as educators,
they're usually asked to create a

portfolio as a part of that licensure
process, and it is intended to,

when it's done well, be a space for
reflection on their practice, right?

It is that space for students to
showcase, for sure, their accomplishments.

Sometimes there's a video of them teaching
in a class and those kinds of things.

But really, why it matters and
why, at least from the teacher

education standpoint, we, we had
our students using portfolios was

to give them a space to attend to
the work that they had been doing.

and find ways to identify and reflect
on what about it is significant, what

about it they can learn from, how it is
that it sheds light on who they are as

an educator or the kind of educator they
aspire to be, and all of those things.

And I had such rich and meaningful
experiences working with my students

who were soon teaching and doing their
portfolios, learning about them, not

just by supervising them in the class,
which is a part of the equation as well.

But also by engaging with
them through their portfolios.

So that was, that's one of the
ways in which I have, you know,

for most of my career, had a very
positive associations in terms of the

possibilities that portfolios have.

The other thing, and it, I can't even
remember, it was, Uh, 15, 20 years

ago, probably closer to 20 years ago,
I remember I was in a class with my

students and I was, so what often happens
in Occupational Hazard if you teach

philosophy Is that people think they
have to talk and write in a certain way

in their philosophy papers that is very
tortured and overblown and almost like a

masterpiece theater, you know, version of,
you know, and, and part of my work would

be to get them to, you know, simplify
and speak in direct terms and it's okay.

You don't have to sound like you're this
elevated, you know, esoteric individual.

Let's work through the ideas together and.

One of the ways in which I did
that is encourage my students,

and there's a time and a place for
it, but to write in first person.

Rather than this abstract, one must think.

It forces one to question.

I'm like, no, no, no.

It's causing you to question.

Blame the ideas that you have
and the questions that you

have and that sort of thing.

And one of my students, we were talking
about it in class one day, And one of

my students told us, everybody in the
class, that she had a very clear memory

as an elementary school student, I think
she said she was in fourth grade, their

teacher took a wooden letter I, capital I,
they went into their yard of their school,

they dug a hole, and they buried the I.

As a way for that teacher to teach
them not to use first person in their

writing and that broke my heart because
what that effectively was saying

to them is that you have to silence
your voice, that your individual way.

Of understanding, perceiving,
and responding to the things

that you're learning, you have
to repress and stuff away, right?

And what a vivid way, I can't
believe that this teacher did

this with the students, right?

And that student carried that with her,
you know, this was undergraduate students,

carried that with her all the way.

So that even when her professor is
saying, please write in first person,

she was saying, I, I can't, I can't.

It's still buried, you know, to
her, it felt as though it was still

buried in that schoolyard back
from when she was a fourth grader.

Learn And I remembered how, as a graduate
student, I, too, fell into those same

traps, and I was writing papers, you know,
that were technically very well done or

philosophically well constructed, but my
advisor was saying, where are you in this?

I don't see you in this, right?

And I just, those combination of
things caused me as an educator to

make a choice, especially after that
story, then and there, to work as

diligently as I can against that
movement, that pressure, right?

I want my students to understand
and reflect on what they think,

why they think what they think,
and how they think what they think.

And to then be able to see it for
themselves, rather than hide it

behind impersonal language, rather
than hide it behind this pretend

pose of being this abstract.

Scholar that isn't situated within a
particular person with a particular

set of experiences and a particular
culture and history and all those

different sorts of things that we know
that we bring into all of the work.

And so, one of the ways, you know, putting
these different pieces together, one of

the ways that I see to help my students
do that is through portfolios, right?

That is a space where my students
are able to hold together

the work that they're doing.

Reflect on it.

The reflection piece is
really important for me.

Um, it's not, again, it's not just
showing to tell from my point of view.

It's really about what you have to say
about the work that you've done and why

you've chosen certain pieces to highlight.

And, and, and I used Digication in
a number of different ways, but in

the capstone, that's the portfolio
that I teach, um, I have my students.

They do a number of different
reflective, excuse me,

reflective essays on Digication.

It's separated into five sections,
but in two sections, they use

artifacts of their work, but they
use them in very different ways.

One of the sections is about
developmental milestones.

So, I am asking students not to choose
their best, not to choose the things

that they are even necessarily, you
know, super proud or excited to share.

I want them to find those critical
moments, those turning points, those,

those times in their learning that
something happened as a result of it,

whether that means they learned English,
they needed to write in a different way.

They found that the way that they
were approaching scholarship and

research was, um, not leading to
fruitful ground, whatever it might be.

And that's what they put on their
Digication pages for that section.

And then, of course, they
write about it, right?

And they claim it.

And then they try to understand
how that played an important part.

in their journey as a
student in our program.

Then there's the other section where it
is the showcasing and the accomplishments

and I want to see what they see as their
best work in relation to our learning

outcomes for our program and all that
stuff and then still reflect on that

and also connect that back to how does
this collection of artifacts relate

to this other collection of artifacts
because they're all a part of the same I.

They're all a part of the same person.

Who has learned throughout
this program and developed

and evolved in different ways.

And so that's 1 of the things that I
see as being so powerful about what the

portfolio allows our students to do.

It also.

As I think you and I have talked about
in separate context, really places,

at least from the way I approach it,
places this emphasis on narrative and

the narrative unity of the individual
who is presenting this information.

They have to think about who am I
and how am I going to present myself

and my work on this platform with
there's, as you know, there's plenty

of room for creative expression.

And then, of course, there are
the different parameters and

expectations I set up for them.

And they then have that opportunity
to weave their story together in

a way that makes sense to them.

I encourage them to use metaphor.

I encourage them to think of
it as a form of storytelling.

Um, but it, that can look very
different for different students.

So, some of my students who have more
of those linear, concrete ways, their

way of expressing that looks different
than some of my students who have more

artistic inclinations, and that's fine.

I'm still seeing them emerge.

as themselves.

And what's neat about it is teaching
this every single semester, fall,

spring, and summer, since I started,
like I said, six years ago, I've never

seen two portfolios look the same.

And now with Digication, it's
just amplified even more, right?

I mean, they're able to really express
themselves on a level beyond what

they could do in a Word document.

So it's really exciting.

Again, though, the disclaimer
is that that's not the only

way we're using Digication.

That's just an example.

Oh, how that's playing out.

I think that it's, that's amazing.

And you know, something about, I
mean, I think we actually touched

on this idea of having the time
and space to just think and, and

identify those points in lives where
changes happened and reflect on that.

It's, it's a, it's a real privilege to
have that time, you know, to do that,

to, to, to have someone say, Oh, hold on
a minute, that's, that's what matters.

A lot.

You're going to spend time doing that.



We're not going to have you read 13
more textbooks because guess what?

There's 3, 000 more.

There's 30, 000 more in the library.

You know, you'll never finish them.


Um, so, but instead of doing any of those,
um, stop for a minute and just do this.



And I love that because it It
takes a very complex self, um,

to try to make connections.

And I think that we, you know, like,
um, we make connections, we make

connections sometimes naturally, but
sometimes we have to go in and seek

them out and make those connections.

The good thing about it is
that once you make some certain

connections, they don't get unmade.

You see.

You know, it's easy.

It becomes easy.

You're like, Oh, well,
it's like riding a bike.

Once you know, you've made
the connections on how.

How balance works with your
body, and it just kind of, it

just, it's just always there.

And I, I love that about, you know,
sort of you having the students

think about these critical turning
points, moments, you know, of their

lives and, and, and reflect on them.

And I, I think that, um, In Digication,
one of the, we have a, we have

this, we have this, uh, this phrase,
this, this thing called, you know,

be heard, be seen, be recognized.

But I think that, you know,
sometimes we, we forget it.

You have to be heard, be seen,
be recognized by yourself.


First, because if, You know, it's, it's,
um, you know, I was, you know, really

trained in the arts and design and,
and, and some of the, some of the ways

people thinking about expression and
self expression, um, it's about finding

yourself, finding about what it is that
you wanted to, what, what you're about

and what you like, what you What your
visions are, you know, um, and then

you have to express it to other people.

Then you have to take some of
that back and you have to do

it again and over and over.

Um, and these are the kind of things that
these are kind of some of the process that

I feel like are, um, They are absolutely
non linear and not specializable, you

know, talking about how to be specialized.

You can't specialize on that
because you are going to be

different from everyone else.



So you, you can specialize in yourself.

That's exactly it.

I agree completely.

And that, that's very much where I
was coming from as I've taken over

the portfolio capstone and continue
to teach it and craft it and make.

Tweaks to it is this idea of helping
my students synthesize their learning

and to be able to articulate it,
like you said, to themselves and

then to be able to carry it forward.

Because Time and time again, they will
be asked, what is this MLA all about?

What, you got this MLA degree, what is it?

What has it been?

And, you know, they can give an answer
similar to what I've done, but that's not

going to be as interesting if they don't
see themselves within that MLA degree.

And if they don't see how they
themselves have taken that

opportunity to, to earn this degree
and what it has meant for them.

And how they see it connecting
for themselves in terms of

who they are and what they do.

And so, I could not agree with you more.

I think especially because we are such
a non specialized degree, we would

do our students a disservice to not
provide them with this opportunity.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I think.


It's, it's, but I, frankly, like you, I
think it's important, regardless of what

one studies, that would be my argument
as well, and I love what you had to say.

About, um, how, as a student of art,
that is a continuous discussion about

expression and self expression, and
then also reaching across yourself to

others, too, who you don't even know,
aren't even in the room with you when

you're doing that process of creation.

And so, how do you create
those opportunities for synergy

and connection and synthesis?

All of that.

I think this helps.

I think this gives the students
the right kind of Encounter, I

guess, with that way of responding
to the work that they've done.

Well, um, I feel like that I
can talk to you forever, Laura.

I, um, I think we've probably gone a
little over than we normally do anyway.

Oh no, I'm sorry!

No, but, oh, no, please don't.

Um, I, I'm getting my, um, my dose
of MLA, um, class right now, I feel.

And, uh, but, um, seriously, I, I
can't imagine people listening to this.

If you made it this far, I think
you're going to probably go and

check out, check out the MLA program.

I hope so, and I would actually in
all sincerity, uh, I'm sure you'll

provide my contact information.

I'm more than happy to correspond with
or even meet with over video conference.

Anyone who has interest or MLA program,
obviously I think it's a pretty neat

experience and I hope others Like you
said, I hope they see that as well, at

least emerge out of our conversation.

Well, especially because
it's an online async program.


I'd imagine that means people
can come from all over the world.



Um, you know, you don't have to
uproot your family to go and do it.

You could be, like you said,
working in the West Coast.

You can be in Silicon Valley,
Hotshot, and then learn about.

You know, find out for
yourself what you're doing.

Is it, is it, you know, just
because you can, should you?


Um, right.

And, uh, you could also be, you
know, someone who's, um, you

know, um, a practicing doctor in
a place where you are seeing, um,

lots of difficulty and suffering.

And you have to figure out, well, what
this, you know, what does this all mean?


What does this all mean?

Meaning, how do I?

Continue to provide value
to, to our world, right?

So, so I, I think that it's, it's
an amazing, it's amazing place.

I almost feel like that, you know, it's
one of those things that, uh, people,

I, I, I love what you said, you know, we
have people in the eighties taking this.

I almost feel like people
should take it every 10 years.

That would be great.

Yeah, well, not to, not to sound
like a sales pitch, but actually one

of our alumni benefits is that once
you've completed our program, you

can come back and audit our courses
for one third the tuition rate.

So, that creates that opportunity
for those who just want to

keep going a little bit more.

Just every now and then pick out one of
our classes and they're able to access

it at a more reasonable price for them.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's pretty cool.

That's pretty cool.

I like that.

Yeah, at least I think it supports
this idea about that the learning is

never finished, you know, and that
we're all, um, there's never that.

That's the final endpoint for us,
at least in terms of this program

and, and these kinds of questions.

Well, and it's not the point, right?


It's not.

We didn't beat MLA.


We got to the end and you were done.



And that's selfishly why it's so great to
teach in the MLA program because I get to

keep learning every single class I teach
every single semester, you know, with all

the different students I get to work with.

So selfishly, I'm just.

Just benefiting just as much from
the experience as the students are.

Well, um, your happiness and your
passion, you know, with all of

this is just absolutely infectious.


I, I wish you, um, the best and, uh,
continued success in, in swimming in

this incredible intellectual and, and,
and philosophical pool of talents.

Um, and, uh, I.

I hope that, um, we get to continue
to, you know, support your work

and then seeing, seeing where
things go in the next, you know, in

the, in the, in the coming years.

I'm sure that we'll, you know,
have more of these conversations

and I look forward to next time.

Thank you so much, Jeff.

I feel as though every single time
we talk, I walk away with so many

different ideas about things I
want to be doing in my classes.

And I just need to express to
you how much I have enjoyed the

collaboration that we've been doing.

Like I said, the different
possibilities that are now opened up

now that we're, um, using Digication
more and more in our classes, so.

Until the next time,
but thank you so much.

Please, I hope you hear how grateful
I am for how much you have brought

into these conversations that
we've been having over the past.

Like you said, I think it's been
around 12 to 18 months or so.

So thank you so much.

All right.

Take care, Laura.

Bye bye.


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